| Electrical FAQS - Frequently asked questions |
Why do I need so many receptacles on my kitchen counter back splash?
In a kitchen the code requires that no point along the counter top be more
than 24" from an outlet. Also any counter 12" or more requires a receptacle.
These receptacles must all be GFI protected.
than 24" from an outlet. Also any counter 12" or more requires a receptacle.
These receptacles must all be GFI protected.
The wire on my service outside is missing the outside insulation, is this
dangerous?
dangerous?
A light fixture in my house is flickering, what should I do?
A flickering light could be the symptom of several problems. This should be
checked. It could be a loose connection in the circuit. It could also be a
problem outside your house especially if all the lights in the house seem to be
flickering. In any case like this it's best to not use the lights and call a licensed
electrician to check it out.
checked. It could be a loose connection in the circuit. It could also be a
problem outside your house especially if all the lights in the house seem to be
flickering. In any case like this it's best to not use the lights and call a licensed
electrician to check it out.
I plug my hair dryer in the bathroom and when the air conditioner is on in
the bedroom the breaker trips, why?
the bedroom the breaker trips, why?
A receptacle in my bathroom, kitchen or elsewhere stopped working?
Check the receptacle if it is a GFI it may be tripped. These are the receptacles
with a reset button on them. The receptacle may need to be reset. It is
possible on an older home to find the GFI receptacle in the garage is also
protecting a second floor bath, so check carefully.
with a reset button on them. The receptacle may need to be reset. It is
possible on an older home to find the GFI receptacle in the garage is also
protecting a second floor bath, so check carefully.
I smell a fish like odor near a receptacle or near my electric panel?
| The following is a series of questions and answers about lighting that has been very helpful to a great many people. The site that hosted the forum, and still does is a great site called The Garden Web. |
I am posting this here from another forum at someone's request hope it helps here
as well.
As an electrical contractor and being in the construction field for over 25 years there
are some consistent mistakes I see made in new homes and renovations. Maybe
some of this can be helpful.
A house or any particular room can be carefully planned, well thought out and
perfectly executed but without the proper lighting it never really comes to life. A
perfect example is a tile back splash in a kitchen. Without some nice under cabinet
lighting to show it off it never really reaches it's potential as an eye opener.
As you plan each room there are three basic forms of lighting. General Lighting -
which light you need in a room to function. A means to safely navigate the room in
the dark of night. Accent Lighting - light that highlights a particular item or items of
importance to you or the room design. Task lighting - light that serves a function
related to a particular task or area where work is performed.
A kitchen benefits most from all three forms of lighting in most cases. Recessed
lighting combined with a pendant or two and possibly a ceiling fan can provide the
general lighting. Under cabinet lighting serves two functions. It acts as Task lighting
for working on the countertop as well as Accent lighting to highlight that beautiful
countertop and back splash. Additional accent lighting can be added in glass
cabinets, which really brings them to life. In some cases where crown molding is
installed and there is space above some cove lighting can create a wonderful effect
and ambience to a room.
In a living room a couple of well placed wall washers can turn an fireplace wall that
seemed ordinary into a piece of art. Perhaps you are planning on a wall to display
photos or a collection of art posters. Wouldn't it be nice to light that independently
and show it off? Along with the lighting, the way in which they are switched is almost
as important. A room with 9 recessed lights that all come on at once lacks
forethought.
In any room by breaking the lights that are switched into sections or patterns and
through the use of dimmers, a room can take on many personalities and moods.
When considering switches it is also important to consider traffic flow through the
house. There is nothing worse than a setup where you have to go back and turn a
light off only to proceed in the dark. With the proper planning and use of 3 way and 4
way switches the house can be so much more user friendly.
If you find this info useful let me know and I can keep going.............and going..........and
going lol
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
This is just the thread I was hoping to find! *smile* We are preparing to embark on a full
kitchen re-do. I can hardly wait to rid the ceiling of that "lovely" fluorescent box! The question
is, what to replace it with? Our kitchen is a small galley, 11 1/2 x 8 1/2. It is open on both
ends, (the kids love to run circles through it), and there is a 33"sq window at one end. Next
to the window is part of the slider door, so we do get some natural light, although none of it is
direct because there is a covered patio directly outside. We have been looking at those "new"
bendable track lights, but we are concerned that the five halogen bulbs wouldn't give off
enough light at night. (Any thoughts?) Recessed lights are another option. The kitchen ceiling
is directly below a large attic, so it is easily accessible. (We've installed can lights before
elsewhere.) Do you think recessed lights are a better solution than the bendable track light? If
so, how many cans would you recommend for a space that size? The "general lighting" is
giving us the hardest time. As much as we dislike the fluorescent box, it is what we're used to.
I sure appreciate any help you are able to give! Thanks so much!
Stacie
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
I'm also having trouble with our general lighting plan. How do you determine the
number/placement of recessed lights? And what features should you look for in these lights?
I'm going to have an L-shaped kitchen with island and was thinking of pendant lights over the
island and table, plus under-cabinet lights, in addition to the recessed lights.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tipsLaura, I'm having the same kind of kitchen lighting but am
confused about the undercabinet kind. Do you know what you are getting?
Keep going ltngbolt! I wish our electrician was as helpful as you are. Thanks!
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Meggswife I drew a quick layout for a galley kitchen from your explanation, not sure
if it's right. As for the lighting in a kitchen I prefer recessed cans. One main reason
is you can place the lights close enough to the counters that you won't get shadows.
About 24" off the wall which puts the center of the light even with the outside edge
of the countertop. Of course ceiling joists can alter the layout. As for the size of the
cans, in a smaller room you may want to go with a smaller can like a halo H-5 which
is a 5" can or you can go to something in the 4" range but then you may need 8
lights as opposed to 6. If the room looks like I drew a ceiling fan in the center could
make a nice addition as well, but no light kit on it just a clean close to the ceiling fan.
Laura, Pendants over the island is a great look and works fine as a look with
recessed lighting in the room. Placement of the recessed lights depends on the size
of the can. For standard 6" cans in a kitchen setting with 8 foot ceilings, I don't like
to go more than 4-5 feet between fixtures. I will try to elaborate more later, need to
get off to a job right now.
Here is a link that might be useful: Galley Kitchen
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Keep going ltngbolt! What do I do for light in the 1/2 of my kitchen that has exposed, hand
hewn beams? The "working half of the kitchen" (the two sides are divided by a peninsula with
recessed cans over the stove) has a regular plaster ceiling. It will have an island that I plan to
put a pendant over. But what do I do about lighting in the non-working half? I have a
fireplace there, a couch and my kitchen table - pushed up against the peninsula. Right now we
just use lamps but it always seems dark. - Crey
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt:
Please give your opinion re: mixing different types of light in the kitchen.
I currently have halogen undercabinet lighting, flourescent general lighting and an incandescent
chandelier over the breakfast room table. To me, the lights all have different colors and it
gives a strange effect. What do you recommend for a new kitchen lighting plan?
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
thanks ltngbolt! Would you please also comment on the "swiss cheese" look? I have seen so
many kitchen designs where there are way too many cans in the ceiling. Unneeded and looks
terrible.
I have only 5 cans in my ceiling, along the L of the counter, then 3 mini pendants over the
island. There are 4 more cans elsewhere in the main area - 2 over a couch and 2 over a
display cabinet. Then a fixture over the table. The original designer put 12 cans *just in the
kitchen area*! WITH PENDANTS!
Finally, I do have a burning need: My display cabinet needs lighting inside. Because of the
way the doors open I need lights that are less than 1" front to back. I also don't want anything
very bright, just a nice soft glow. These would be linked together or not, but ultimately would
be plugged in to the wall, no room for any more switches. Any suggestions? Thanks!
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt,
Thanks so much for your informative comments. We're building a custom house. Do you
recommend getting a lighting designer or should a good electrician be able to advise properly?
Thanks.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt, How's it feel to be so...popular?!!! We've missed you and you didn't even know
you were missing!
Here's my dilemma: I think I'm covered for most of the lighting, and everything's on dimmers
with 3-ways in the appropriate place. We've got rope lighting 7 feet high, recessed task
lighting (halogen), and mini pendants over the island with two ceiling fans in the walkway
(incandescent). There are no upper cabinets and I'd love my low (around 6.5 inches)
backsplash to show up and glitter. Will the halogen task lighting be sufficient? (My other
concern is the halogen lights are too warm although they'll be 10 feet high...)
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt,
As you can see, your post hit a nerve. The basic information you provided in the first note
was wonderful, yet many of us are still not clear on how much light. Like weed30, I am wary
of the "swiss cheese effect" (well-put, weed!) I have a bungalow that only had one ceiling light
in each room, and am trying to find a way to do the lighting that is efficient and effective, yet
still respectful of the home's style. I went from being adamant about no recessed lighting to
being open to it, but it seems the advice from electricians I am getting is more, more, more.
So my question is, with a modest size kitchen (12 x 15) that will have a ceiling fixture (general
light) over the table in the center, halogen lights within the range hood for task lighting there,
and a pendant light over the sink for that task lighting, how how much more lighting is really
necessary?
Do you follow some general guidelines when setting how much recessed lighting to put in?
How far from the counter edge do you recommend placement to avoid casting shadows
while working at the counter?
Thanks for your comments.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt,
Thank you so much for your helpful response, (and helpful sketch)! After seeing your
drawing, I agree that recessed lights will work/look best. You are a "light-saver"! Have a
great day!
Stacie
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Wow I am overwhelmed with the response. I promise I will answer all these
questions. I work on this mostly in the evening since I am busy during the day
physically doing the same. Tonight I will get to these.
One thing I could use help with is weed30, how did you get that link right in the text
of your message? It would certainly let me answer easier if I could do that. As for
that cabinet Satco makes a nice product but it is not on their website. It comes in 10,
20 and 30" lengths and is basically a 3 sided metal frame with one open side that the
light eminates from. The light is mild and not bright and perfect for that application.
It comes in black metal which suits wood well.
More to come
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Crey, the situation of 1/2 the room with exposed beams you can use a low voltage
track light. Something along the lines of a juno track if the beams are not really
large. The reason is with a low voltage track and heads the whole setup is small and
can easily be hidden and not so obtrusive as big bulky track heads. I am not a big
fan of track lights but there are times it is perfect for an application. They use
halogen lights and can give good lighting that can be directed where you want it.
spacific, I can tell you my preference but with my customers I first get a feel for how
much light they feel comfortable with. For me I want a room to be capable of
different moods and functions. Take a bedroom for instance. Most times when in use
you don't need much light since your sleeping or involved in other low light activities.
But there are times such as cleaning, changing sheets, making beds and getting
dressed that you may want to have good light to see what you are doing. In most
rooms in the 12 x 12 or 14 x 14 size by placing 4 recessed lights about 30" of each
corner symetrically on a dimmer, you can have excellent general lighting or romantic
lighting for those other times.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt: To have a clickable link, you just find the web address of the photo you want to
show. Then you insert it in between some simple HTML commands. ie:
<a href=http://www.greatlighting.com>Great Lighting</a>
Note that the "a href" has a space, but that is the only space in there. You can name the link
whatever you want, I used Great Lighting in the example. Make sure you don't forget to
"close" the link command by using the
</a>
command.
If you need more help, just email me and I can create the syntax for you. Click on my name
for the email link.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Thanks weed30, I will try and use it here. One of the best undercabinet lighting
systems I have used is Task Lighting It is a low voltage linear system. It is a little
more money than some others but quality wise I think it's the best.
As for the swiss cheese effect I suppose I would have to see a picture of a job that
you felt looked that way. I think if the lights are properly placed and layed out
symetrically the lights look like they should be there.
Different types of lighting can have a very noticeable effect on the color you see.
Incandescents cast a yellow tint and on some kitchen cabinets it can be an adverse
look. Halogen and most newer fluorescents can give a true color rendering to the
cabinet finish.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt, thank you for the tip on the Satco lights. I sent them an email describing what I want.
You may end up being sorry you posted your offer to help here...lighting is really a hot topic
and confusing to most!
We all hope you stick around though!!!
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Thanks for your comments ltngbolt.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt~ Thank you!
I am in the middle of a kitchen addition, and I've made most of the lighting decisions-
recessed cans, alabaster chandelier over table, pendant over sink.
I am still confused about under cabinet lights to light up my counter work space. Do you
recommend xenon, halogen, or fluorescent? Any particular brand? What about spacing?
Should they be installed at the front edge of the upper cabinet or the back edge touching the
wall?
Thanks for all your help!
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ArtTeacher,
The actual type of light is really a matter of choice. The most economical and trouble
free are thinline fluorescents. You can purchase UC fluorescents from your local
electrical supply (my first choice) or a large home store. These we always mount
against the backsplash wall, hard wired. They provide ample light and the bulbs last
a couple of years.
If you want to go a little higher in price my favorite light is xenon and the company
Task Lighting makes a few different types. If you are doing a nice tile backsplash
you want to show off, these mounted near the front of the cabinet will really do the
job. The kitchen in the first group of photos in thisPhoto Gallery was done with Task
Lighting.
As far as spacing if you use fluorescents you want to go as large as you can under
each cabinet. With the low voltage linear lighting like Task, you want to try and have
it go from end to end on every cabinet row, of course remaining within any light rail
being installed.
Do you have any glass cabinets? If so don't overlook the potential to light them from
inside as well.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
We are building a new house and visited the lighting center our builder uses this week. We
were set to use xenon lighting under the cabinets. The designer recommended flourescent for
under the counter. They had two kitchens with xenon lighting on display. They both had
strong hot spot reflections in the counter from the bulbs. She said flourescent gives much
more even lighting. Not what I expected. Anyone experience bulb reflection with xenon
lighting?
Bob
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Bob,
What type of reflection were you seeing? Was it a granite countertop? What kind of
fixtures, was it a mini track or a strip, pucks or individual fixtures?
Remember, and this is the case with any lighting on a granite gloss counter, in any
dark solid colors especially. They act like a mirror and you will see the underside of
the cabinet as well as the lighting when you are standing in fron of the counter.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
I went to the library last night and one of the books (which was 6-7 years old) recommended
against recessed can lighting because it can be quite hot if you're standing under it. Is this
true? Most of you seem to be getting those can lights -- can you give me some advice on
what size to get and where to place them?
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
If your cans are halogen, yes, this could be possible. I have incandescent cans, and they are
terrific.
I have halogen pendants over the island, and the lights get HOT!! They only have 35w bulbs.
They are also incredibly bright - they hurt my eyes if I'm sitting at the island and glance up at
them. Wish they made 20w bi-pins in the size I need.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
The only time heat from fixtures is really a concern, providing of course
manufacturers recommendation for bulb wattage size is followed, is if the ceiling is
unusally low. In a normal setting, recessed cans should not make a real noticeable
difference in room temperature. That said, I have seen cases where there are so
many lights that it actually does add heat to a room.
Another factor is bulb wattage. Going back a few years it was not uncommon to put
150 watt floods in recessed cans. Now in that case, yes you could feel the heat. This
could account for what you read in the book. Today no one I know in this business
uses 150watt floods anymore.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Thanks for setting my mind at ease about the recessed cans. How many do you think I need?
My L-shaped kitchen (with island) and eating area will be 13' x 22' (the L itself is about
13'x14'). Do you scatter them all over the area or just near the countertops in the kitchen?
Oh and I was thinking of getting a solar tube too, maybe about 5' from the corner walls. We
have a window but it faces north. This lighting business sure is confusing, but I'd like to plan it
properly.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Laura, I have an L shaped kitchen that is 10' x 12' and I only have 5 cans along the counters.
The electrician wanted to put one out in front of the fridge/pantry but it would not have lined
up with the other cans, and besides there is a light in the fridge ;)
They are more evenly spaced than they look in the pic below - the angle I shot from was
funny.
Here is a link that might be useful: cans
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
weed30, the kitchen came out beautiful. I to would have suggested another recessed can
over the fridge. I will give you my reasoning but I don't discount your line of thinking. There is
no right and wrong in any of this, we all have different tastes. The reason is although the fridge
does have a light, the cabinets don't. In order to see well in those cabinets you would need
your pendants on. The other reason is with the recessed cans on the whole run of cabinets is
not uniformly lit. It seems that the light would be out of line but if it is placed the same distance
from the top of cabinet it looks okay.
If you have area opposite the L-shape kitchen that you need to light as well you can line some
of theses cans up with those to have a symmetrical pattern. Think about your switching
options as well.
Laura P,
A layout similar to the one in weed's picture, is a good one. Keeping the lights about
4 feet apart with an 8 foot ceiling and lining them up so the center of each is lined up
with the countertop edge gives you nice uniform light over the counters.
One other very important point. I know you mentioned a solar tube, which is great,
but always remember when designing a lighting plan you don't want to take daylight
into account. Believe it or not I have seen people design a room and later realize
that it actually gets dark at night and that big window is useless.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt: Any rule of thumb to tell if one's lighting plans are sufficient? My state (Calif) requires
fluorescent for general kitchen lighting. I plan to use use two clouds in my tiny galley (9'
measured to end wall cabs that reach ceiling). The 16" diam. version model uses two 13W;
the 20" diam. one uses four 13W. My older eyes need more & more light, but I'm wondering
if the 20" is overkill. Or can one just reduce the # of bulbs one uses in the fluorescent fixture?
Thx for your insights.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
I didn't realize that was the case in California, very interesting. Talk about the
governement controlling every aspect of your life. Okay off the politics.
A 13 watt fluorescent puts out about 800 lumens, a measure of light. In a setting like
a kitchen, where you want to have good working light you would want about 15
lumens per square foot. Using this formula, if your room is about 10ft x 10ft you
would need two 13 watt bulbs. If you need higher than average light levels due to age
or other factors you may want to consider the 4 bulb fixture.
If I were to make a suggestion it would be to go with a 4 foot cloud fluorescent that
takes either 2 or 4 40 watt tubes. One 40 watt fluorescent tube emits about 2400
lumens. Because you mentioned a galley kitchen a longer light would give you better
overall spread.
On the topic of fluorescent light here is a bit of information. Fluorescent bulbs are
rated with long life hours, in the 15,000 hour range. But I recommend to people all
the time to change the bulbs once a year for standard bulbs and once every two
years for compacts. The reason is the gas in fluorescents diminishes with time and
the lumen output after one year can be as much as 30%. Unlike an incandescent
bulb which just plain goes out, fluorescent bulbs get dimmer with time so you
gradually get used to it and may not even realize your living with less light. That is
until you put those new bulbs in!
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Okay...my turn now. I just had my first walk-thru to consider lighting. I think I can handle the
rest of the house, but I have questions about my kitchen.
Background: The kitchen is 20' x 32,' including the eating area. The built-in hutch (on right
looking at picture) will be lighted. There will be lighting that comes in the hood (4 halogens).
Inside the alcove, I had planned a "can" over each base cabinet flanking the range (there are
no upper cabs here). These would be outside the hood, but inside the alcove and not much
use to the rest of the kitchen. I had also planned 2 cans inside the valance over the sink area.
I had planned one large chandelier (or two smaller ones) over the kitchen table (this area
would be at the "bottom" of the picture, way opposite the range wall, but it is not shown).
The island closest to the range wall is the prep island. The other island is for
homework/entertaining.
Questions: I need to figure out how to light the islands and the perimeter of the kitchen. I had
thought I would put 3 cans along the sink wall (in addition to the two behind the valance) to
hit 50/50 on the counter edge. I thought I'd put two at the built-in hutch, each one closer to
where a side of the hutch meets a fridge (the hutch is between two refrigerator/freezers), to hit
50/50 on the counter edge.
I thought I'd put 2 over the prep island (6' x 4'), across the width. The second island is
trickier. Seating is only on the far end (toward the bottom of the page). I don't want to cast
shadows over the kids' shoulders while they are working.
I will have undercabinet lighting at the sink cabs and in the Baking Center (in the left
"alcove"). But it doesn't seem like I'll have enough light in the Baking Center. Should I just
stick another can in the area? I know exactly what Weed means about the Swiss cheese
effect!
I plan to have several different lighting zones. Also, I saw some really cute pendant lights that
I thought would look great, as a series of 3, over my prep island...but I don't want to clutter
up the ceiling, nor do I want to detract from the range wall, which is the whole reason for
building the new house. (Okay, just kidding, we were going to build anyway!)
Thank you for your advice! Where should I send my payment for consulting services??!! Deb
Here is a link that might be useful: Overhead View of Kitchen
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Okay I took your drawing and drew in the lights the way I understood them from
your description. I did add one light in the area to the right of the stove area because
it will be a dark area otherwise. As far as the rest, a layout like this should work
well. The light to the right of the sink area should help light up your baking center as
well if it is placed near enough to the end. It may create a bit of a shadow when your
standing there but if you add another one there it may look awkward. Is there any
type of UC lighting in that area?
As far as over the work area island at the bottom of the drawing, I think pendants
are a good idea. Two is what I would go with to try to keep that focal point(stove
area) fairly unobstructed. As far as those pendants I would look for two features.
One would be fixtures that could take up to 100 watt bulbs each if incandescent and
something that has a frosted glass so you get light projecting outward as well as
down. The reasoning is with this size kitchen, which looks like it will be beautiful
BTW, you could use the extra light unless you want to go with more recessed lights.
As for payment, lol since you asked, tell everybody you can about my shopping
website. You'd have to email me though because it wouldn't be right if I listed it here.
Here is a link that might be useful: Your Kitchen with Lights Added
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt...you got it! Yay! One vote for the pendants. No one I've talked with likes the idea.
Oh yes, I forgot about the light in front of the pantry. Good catch. I'll also email you. Thank
you again!
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Glad to be of service :)
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Thank you ltngbolt! You have very helpful and kind to give us all of this advice - Crey
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Yes, thank you. I can see that the architect put the lights in the wrong places big time in our
kitchen. But at least the mistakes are on paper and I could change them with the electrician.
At a window/sink or window with major prep area, where would you put the recessed can?
Still at the counter edge? Thanks again for all the advice.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
IMO, the cans should always be on the counter edge. If they are out further, they will be
behind you and you will cast a shadow on whatever you are doing at the counter. Too close
in and they lose their "cone" - diminishing the amount of light you have in the kitchen.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Yes, you have really struck a nerve here. Thank you so much for your illuminating :) advice!
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
This is an extremely helpful thread! I have wired for undercabinet lighting but I am still very
undecided about whether or not I will install it. You see, I don't want them to be visible, but I
also do NOT want molding to hide them. We are going for a very sleek, retro-modern look,
Premier Bristol thermafoil cabs with a light green laminate countertop (Wilson Art Green
Glace). Molding just won't do. So I have basically been looking for the *skinniest* thing I
can find.
I've been looking at Xenon lights because they are cooler than halogen and we dislike the
coldness of flourescent lights. One solution that caught my eye was Pegasus Associates'
Xenon Low-Voltage Light Strip. Any experience with these? Does Task Lighting have an
equivalent or something else that will fit the bill? The button lights look promising, especially if
we recess them into the bottoms of the cabinets. BUT this doesn't seem to be the most
space-effective solution, obviously -- I can just imagine bumping the lamps every time I
unload the dishwasher.
Many thanks!
Here is a link that might be useful: Pegasus Xenon Light Strip
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Here is our lighting plan (you may have to scroll down on the link to see the schematic for
everything). Most of this is in place now, and we really love it. I think our GC thought we
were crazy, because it's a LOT of light (more than swiss cheese)! We were brightness happy.
Partly because it's a north room, and because we were doing deep, rich stained cherry, and
we wanted to be sure we could illuminate enough. Well, we can, but again, we're very
pleased with the results. We did these over 4 circuits, so we can control how much we want,
and dimmers are going in as well for additional control. I wanted to be able to create lots of
"moods" with the lighting, from bright for cooking to very soft for entertaining. And I wanted
the lights to show off the styling of the cabinets.
One thing we found was that lighting help was difficult to find. I think if I could have found a
lighting planner or expert, we would have, but we didn't quite know where to turn, so we did
it ourselves, with the help of a couple of books.
I'm really glad to see someone on-line who has knowledge and can give suggestions and
advice! This is a great thread, and should get bumped from time to time.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt - so kind of you to offer this advice. What would be your thoughts on lighting around
a pot rack? My design calls for an L-shaped section of counter: 5 feet along the wall with a 2'
long (36" wide) peninsula extending out into the room, with a hanging potrack above. (On the
opposite/overhang side, the peninsula will provide a total of 4' of sitting space.) There will be
wall cabinets along the entire 5 feet of wall. Thanks for any help!
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
benanas,
As far as the light in the sink area. I usually recommend that can be placed closer to
the wall in the case where a window is present and there is no wall cabinet.
Sometimes a smaller can and on a seperate switch near the sink. So mant customers
tell me they love having that seperate switch, so I would say it was a success.
aehughes,
Do the cabinets have any kind of reveal? About the tightest thing you can install is a
rope light which doesn't throw a great deal of light but is effective for ambience. The
other thing is Task Lighting (See the link below) Makes some very low profile
lighting, and it is bright. One fixture they have is 7/8".
femmelady,
I think you did a great job. In my eyes you can't have too much light in the kitchen.
There is no other room where lighting is more important. With the switches and
dimmers you get full control and have as much light as you need.
maggie_MI,
I need to ask a couple of questions on this one. Is the pot rack design a rectangle
with an open middle, an open grid or some other design? How far from the ceiling is
the rack. Are you looking for how to light around the rack for your counters, or did
you want to see how you can light the rack?
I have in the past used recessed cans over a pot rack, but there was some additional
ceiling height so it gave a nice effect. Let me know what you have and if by chance
you have a kitchen floorplan you can email it if you like.
Here is a link that might be useful: Task Lighting Fixtures
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
One aspect I find is often overlooked for it's lighting potential. This doesn't work in
all kitchens, but with ones that have a nice flow of upper cabinets and crown molding
with some space above, accent lighting above the cabinets is a show stopper. This
can be accomplished with several different products. Fluorescents, although not my
first choice, is one form of light. It does have a rather unique look but I prefer those
for tray ceilings with coves, that is an awesome look. Incandescent lighting is
another method with hollywood strips. My concern with those is the heat. I always
worry someone will put items that may be flammable above the cabinets for display,
like dried flowers.
The best solution I have found is rope lighting. It is economical both in cost and
useage. It doesn't generate dangerous heat levels. If purchased in an electrical
supply it can be made to size so you get complete coverage. There is one drawback
and that is you need 2 lines of it to get a nice effect. If you use 2 lines you just have
to leave a small space between them, which is not a problem since it's above the
cabinets and you can't see it anyway. It can also be dimmed. If you have seen some
of the kitchen pictures I posted here these were the type of over the cabinet light we
used.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
I noticed a question that comes up often is how to layout recessed cans or high hats.
In a kitchen setting, where good illumination is particularly important. the layout is
more critical than in say the living room. In order to create a layout that works well it
is important to understand the way the actual light eminates from the bulb. In the
case of a normal flood in a 6" recessed can, there is a 60 deg. beam of light.
This means in a room with 8 foot ceilings the circular pattern on the floor is about 9
feet in diameter. This however is not the whole picture. The most intense portion of
this light is in a circle of only 5 feet or so. The remainder is a diminishing amount of
light down to 0 at the edge. In a room requiring just general lighting placing the cans
5 to 6 feet apart will accomplish that, but in a kitchen there is another factor.
In a kitchen we are usually trying to illuminate the counters. The countertops are a
little over 3 feet off the ground. This reduces the beams width meaning 5 to 6 feet
will leave shadows or dark spots. By bringing the light in to a 4 foot spacing
eliminates this problem. See the diagrams to visualize this.
Here is a link that might be useful: Diagrams for Laying out Recessed Lighting
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt, thanks for all this great info; lighting baffles me but I can feel when it's right and
wrong. How do 10' ceilings affect the recessed can layout ?
In my 9x14 kitchen I specified 3 cans, 4' apart on each 14' length, 1' away from one 14' wall,
18" away from the other. That puts them 6.5' apart in the 9' direction - skylights take up the
space between them. One of the 14' walls is all window/glass door and the other has a 9 high
x 11 wide opening to the dining room. One of the cans is centered on a 5' wide cooktop
island at the edge of the counter. There will be a pendant over the 6' prep island, 4' away
from the window wall and uc florescent along the 9' wall. I like the look of lights above the
top cabinets (no soffits) but I won't be able to get up there to change them. Do I have enough
light ?
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt:
I posted earlier about the "funny" feel I get in my kitchen that has three different types of
lights: halogen undercab, flourescent bubble over island, and incandescent chandelier over
breakfast room table. The space is a long rectangle (12x23).
I think that cans are a good option for our kitchen because we have only 8' ceilings.
However, my husband doesn't like the idea of cans in the breakfast area, and I agree that a
hanging fixture helps to define the space somewhat. Plus, we do a lot of reading at the kitchen
table and the kids do their homework there.
Any ideas for us? FWIW, my decorator told us to avoid flourescent, and go with halogen for
"warmer" light. IMO, our undercab lights seem strangely yellow, perhaps in comparison to
everything else. And, of course, they heat up the cabinets.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Mary,
I'm wondering what type of halogen undercabinet lighting do you have? There could
be one or two reasons why they appear yellow. One is the white light from the
fluorescents interacting. The other which I have seen a few times is the color of the
cabinets and backslpash or counter. These can all affect how the light looks.
Recessed incandescents would probably blend in best with everything else. Of
course you could change the undercabinet lighting to fluorescent instead. These are
all a matter of cost. How much are you willing to spend to change it?
My first choice would be go with the recessed cans in the kitchen, leave the hanging
fixture over the table and then see how the undecabinets lights look at that point. I
can visualize it better if I know what the undercabinet lights are. Pucks? or strips or
individual fixtures?
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt: To answer your questions... the potrack I have now is a 30x20 open rectangle; the
top edge is 18" from the 8.5 feet high ceiling, and that seems to be a good height over a
counter. But I will probably need a smaller one in the re-design, and am leaning towards an
oval or round one with a grid to hold lids. I wasn't thinking of illuminating the potrack; the
countertop below will be a fairly important work center, so I was wondering how to
illuminate that. I've been working on getting a design together online that I could post, but
don't have one yet (maybe in a few days...) Thanks again for your help!! This forum really is
amazing.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt, thanks for the suggestion to use two sets of rope lighting. DH really wants to install
these above our cabinets. We have 9 foot ceilings and 42" upper cabinets so we have about
11 inches up there. I am unsure if I should put anything up there besides the lighting.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JudeNY,
I am not sure I follow you. Do you mean the lighting is above the upper cabinets. It
sounds like the center of the cans would be at 1 foot which would line up with the
edge of the uppers. Do you have a drawing I could see? If what I am imagining is
right you have to be very careful. If there is any crown moulding, you could end up
blocking almost all the light.
If the lights that are one foot off the wall on the 14' glass wall I would still be
concerned that your light is too close to the wall. With 10' ceilings the 6.5 feet apart
will work. Do you have more room before the skylight to pull the lights further from
the wall. I don't like to put the lights closer than 24" to a wall and more like 30" if I
can. Unless of course your wall washing, then it's a different story.
Let me know if I am seeing this right.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Dear ltngblt:
We have strips under the cabs with two tiny halogen bulbs, don't know the brand (something
we picked up at Costco for $15 ea). They look yellow to me regardless of other lights on in
the room.
We'll be replacing everything, and I just want to "get it right". Plus, as I approach my fifties,
the more light, the better!
Mary
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Mary, I'll step in, although I am not an expert like ltngbot :) We have cans in the kitchen area
with incandescent bulbs in them, an incandescent fixture on a dimmer over the dining table,
flourescent undercabs and halogen pendants over the island.
I think our lighting is quite adequate and the only thing I would have preferred is that the
pendants were incandescent, but they only came in halogen. They are just really bright, and
not on a dimmer.
The new flourescents available are really terrific - no flicker, no "blue" look, instant on, etc. I
got mine at Home Depot, they are made by GE.
Here is an old post I copied from someone:
----------
Fluorescent, IMO, delivers the higher quality of light, provided that you use the proper fixture
with the proper lamps.
Old style fluorescent lamps (bulbs) were T12 (1-1/2" dia.) used with magnetic ballasts. The
colors readily available were warm white and cool white, both of them were equally crappy.
The magnetic ballasts tend to hum and flicker, and were moderately energy efficient.
Today, T-12/magnetic fixtures should be avoided. undercounter fixtures are available with
electronic ballasts and T8 and T5 lamps. T5 can get a little pricey. The electronic ballasts do
not hum or flicker upon start-up. Make sure the fixture you choose has electronic ballasts.
Today's fluorescent is available in a wide variety of colors - rated in 'degrees
Kelvin'. 3000K is a warmer color, close to incandescent or halogen but a much
crisper light. Personally, I find this to be too warm. 3500K is considered neutral in
color, and it's well suited for residential applications. 4100K is a common lamp color,
I personally think these work well in modern design scheme that would call for
cooler colors. Higher Kelvin ratings produce a whiter, ranging towards blue, light,
often called a daylight color. True, these are closer in color to the morning sun, but I
don't feel they work well in most residential applications.
Yes, you can dim a fluorescent fixture, but it is expensive and requires costly ballast
and special dimmer switches. Consider instead using a two lamp profile and
switching each row of lamps seperately for dual level control.
Use lamps with a high color rendering. Big box guys won't always know what this
means, and I'm not sure that lamps with an 80+ CRI (color rendering index) are
available there. Check with a lighting distributer for a much better selection of
fluorescent lamps.
Osram-Sylvania and Philips make the best fluorescent lamps. GE is the third of the
big 3 lamp manufacturers. Personally, I wouldn't even consider any off-brands other
than these.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Dear ltngblt & everyone,
Do you think recessed fixtures are the best (and necessary) option for general/accent lighting?
I have a 120+ yr old Victorian farmhouse and I'm trying to give the kitchen as much of a
"been here since they built it" feel as possible. So I planned to use school house type
pendants for general lighting, and Xenon undercabinet lighting, and was hoping to avoid
recessed lights because I'm planning to install a pressed tin ceiling and really don't want it full
of swiss cheese holes. Right now, the plan calls for cabinets to the ceiling on at least 2 walls,
and our ceilings will be aproximately 9.5-10ft tall.
Looking at some of the plans on this thread, I suspect I may regret the no recessed fixtures
rule I had created, but I'm just afraid they'll look way too modern. At the same time, the
kitchen is on the north side of the house, gets limited sunlight (plus none obviously at night)
and I'm a light freak. One of my pet peeves about the current kitchen is that it's dim. I'd hate
myself if we finished this kitchen and had the same problem.
Always ;-)
Hunzi
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Hunzi: I've been exactly where you are. We went with four individually switched school house
lights in the kitchen and another in the connected scullery (a couple on dimmers); fluorescent
undercab lights, and sconces between the over-counter windows. Our kitchen gets little
natural light. The schoolhouse lights have tall brass poles that puts the lights down where there
are usuful -- probably about 8-8.5 feet instead of way up high around the tall ceiling.
We're delighted! Plenty of light, and we're old enough to need it. Plan your placement
carefully and I don't think you'll regret bypassing the new! new! new! looking recessed
lighting.
Good luck! Kate.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
I have a question about general lighting and ceiling fans. I would love to have a ceiling fan in
our kitchen. Do you think it would be best to get a ceiling fan with a light kit or a ceiling fan
with no light and a few recessed cans to use for general lighting? The area is 7 feet wide X 13
feet long. I am leaning towards no light on the fan and recessed cans on 2 separate switches.
Thoughts appreciated.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Kate,
Thanks so much! I was really beginning to worry that I'd be making a mistake.
The current kitchen is about 13x11 and has a 9ft ceiling. It only has a triple 60watt bulb
overhead fixture centered, plus a single 60watt fixture over the sink plus an undercabinet
florescent we put in over the main work space. I walk in and turn them all on, and feel it's too
dim but tolerable.
The new kitchen will be 22x13 (we're opening up the adjoining space) best described as a
very wide galley, double galley or an open U plan because we have 4 doors/3 pathways to
deal with (access to the outside, the office, and the basement & dining room). The ceiling will
go back to the original height less any space we need for a beam if we can't tuck it up in the
joists, so anywhere from 9.5ft to 10.5ft. We'll have cabinets on one of the short walls, you
enter from the dining room, and there's a counter parallel immediately on your right, sort of a
scullery/butler's wall with the dish storage, DW, sink then the corner to the wall opposite the
door with a 30in deep counter and the main work space possibly with no wall cabinets
because there's not room for many due to the window close to the corner and an AGA sitting
close to the end of the run. The wall beside the door will be pantry/storage with 2 Subzeros,
lots of pantry space and a 3ft sandwich station/counter landing zone between the fridge &
freezer. The last wall has no cabinets because there's a walkway zone there to the basement
and my office, although I'm strongly considering building a wall of cabinetry there and creating
a hall, because I really need storage space for coats, brooms etc, so I could turn the backside
into a long hall/mudzone which we're giving up to gain the extra room in the kitchen. I'm also
toying with putting in a long but narrow island, maybe 6 or 8 by 2, which would give me loads
more storage and a great workspace. I can't go wider because I'd run into problems with the
width of the passageways. If I do, I'll locate a run of pendants down the middle of it.
I love the idea that the school house lights bringing the light down closer to where it is needed.
I hadn't thought about that.
I haven't decided on any glass front cabinets yet, but if I do, I'll see if we can do the accent
lighting inside them. (Just not sure how well that works if you do not have glass shelves)
I'd kill for a design that allowed for a separate butler's pantry or a scullery. Best I'll be able to
do is move all the dish/linen storage closer to the dining room door.
Please share photos if you can! I'm still in the wish/plannng stages and every idea counts!
especially since it's much harder to find the old house lovers/renovators out there with ideas.
Always ;-)
Hunzi
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt, thanks very much. I was concerned about the 6.5' distance but really wanted those
big skylights. The cans are centered on the skylights (which are centered on the windows) in
one direction and can't go any closer to the skylights without appearing too close.
I'm sorry I'm not able to scan my drawings. I'll try to clarify. The walls where the lights are 1'
from the wall do not have cabinets on them. The 3 lights are centered on very tall windows
and french door and I meant for them to be ambient light and sort of a window wash. There
will be lace curtains on those windows which will have windowboxes and they open on to a
deck. I was hoping to throw light on the windowboxes without having the back of the house
lit like a movie set. From the 9' walls where the cabinets are the cans fall 18" from the edge of
the counters on the 9' walls. I intended for those to illuminate the interior of the cabinets and
have the undercounter lights for work light. The other 14' "wall" is mostly open to the dining
room and those 3 lights are 1' from the opening. The middle can on that wall is centered on
the countertop edge of the cooktop island which is centered on the opening into the dining
room - that island is partially pushed into the dining room. The pendant is centered on the
prep island which is centered on the middle window. Thanks very much for your help.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
oooh, Hunzi, an Aga should look great! What color? I'm sorry that I don't have any pictures;
it's a 15-year old remodel and the zillions of pictures that I DO have are all film and so full of
kids & cats & dogs & people that it's hard to see the kitchen . . . maybe I should take the
digital camera home from work & snap a few.
e-mail me if you want more details, though. I (modestly) consider it a major success!
Kate.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Kate,
The AGA will most likely be cream or black although I have a soft spot for the color red too.
Cream is the front runner, in a very classic creamy/pale yellow kitchen with soapstone
counters and either beadboard or subway tile backsplash. Antique Heart Pine on the floor.
The inspiration kitchen is the Crown-point kitchen I posted above. I'm nuts about that kitchen.
Always ;-)
Hunzi
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt, Thanks so much for posting here. I've found so many answers to questions I've had.
I will be having a 9 foot run of 12 inch deep by 120 inches tall cabinetry to to used as a
shallow pantry on one side of my kitchen. Top 30" will be obscure glass.
My question is, when putting recessed lighting in front of tall units do you measure the 30"
distance out from the wall or the face of the unit. The ceiling height in front of cabinets will be
12.5 to 13 feet. Recommendations? Thanks.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
There are certainly times when modern recessed lighting does not conform with the
decor. A victorian house with tin ceilings would surely qualify. Using pendants is a
good solution. If you need some type of guide us about 4-5 watts of light per square
foot for a kitchen. That would be keeping it on the well lit side. Any less than 3 watts
per square foot is to dim IMO for a kitchen. This is just a very basic guideline and
applies to incandescent lighting only.
LeeC,
I always like to go with no light kit on the ceiling fan unless it is going over a table.
Recessed lighting with a ceiling fan with no light will work. One note of caution. Try
to get a close to the ceiling type of fan, ceiling hugger, and be sure the lights are not
too close to the fan. If the fan is low or the lights are too close you end up with a very
annoying strobe light effect from the lights in the ceiling.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
lighting cabinet
wildchild,
I would have to see the rest of the layout to answer properly. Do you need to
illuminate the area how far in front of those cabinets. If not you could probably go
about 24" from the wall. At the risk of being long winded I never see things as cut
and dry so please forgive me. When I look at a situation to illuminate I see it as the
whole picture and want we want to achieve.
For instance in the case of these cabinets I would ask you a couple of things. Do you
want the light to show this piece off? Or do you want just good general lighting for
this area of the room? Is it more important that the outside be well lit or do you want
to be able to see into the cabinets well when you open the doors? All these factors
help determine the best way to light an object.
Hope I didn't complicate things. I just want you be happy when your done. Let me
know what you feel you want to accomplish with this light.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ltngbolt, Finished kitchen will be 14.5' by 28.5'. The far short wall faces East and will be an
eating area with windows and a back door space to be used for dogs' things.
This is the only exterior wall of the kitchen.
South facing long wall will be a 18' run of base and wall cabinets. The range, sink and
dishwasher are on this wall.
The short West wall will have a wall oven cab with a single oven and microwave above it.
Refrigerator is next with a doorway at right angle to the South wall leading to a hallway.
The North wall has a doorway (4' wide) to family room. The above mentioned wall of
cabinets run along here towards the East wall.
They are strictly for pantry food and seasonal/party storage. Composed of three 90" tall by
36" wide and 12" deep units topped by 30" tall obscure glass fonted units.
The ceiling height will start at 8' high on the South wall and be aproximately 13.5' at the North
wall.
A 30" by 46" skylight is planned with florescent tube lighting built into the well to satisfy our
"left coast" requirements.
There will be an island for (storage and baking only..no sink) beneath the skylite centered in
"working area" of kitchen. Island will measure 7.5-8' long by 3' wide give or take.
Oh yeah, the skylite faces South and will have a shade to be used when needed.
Hope this gives you the info you need. Thanks again.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips addendum
Whoops. I became so long-winded I forgot to answer the basic question about the use of the
lighting in front of these cabinets. I just want to see into them. Nothing to show off or
highlight. My kitchen is all about function for ME not form.
The thought originally arose when you mentioned to an above poster that you would like to
see the area in front of her fridge cabinet have a can. I was just wondering how far out.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
In our 12' by 16' kitchen we are using halogen line volt cans around the perimeter. From what
I have read here we have enough and have them spaced properly. We have no upper
cabinets but we do have two open shelves on either side of the stove. Under these will be
kichler xenon undercabinet lighting. Today I went searching for pendants to go over our 2' x7'
island. The ones I liked were incandescant and took a 60 watt maximum bulb. I planned on
getting two since the ceramic fixture was a bit bigger than your average halogen pendant. My
question is like Mary. Is it ok to mix these different types of lights? Would I have been better
off ordering incandescant recessed lighting? In general what do most people prefer? (we
haven't installed the lights yet so I guess we could exchange them) While I am still in the
decision making process, would I be better off getting halogen pendants in order to "match"
the light in the cans if I do end up keeping them?
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Danimal, Thank you and I respect your opinion as well. Thats the wonderful
challenge of lighting and why I so emphasize that the homeowners needs are first
and foremost. My job in that comes in using my experience to help them achieve
that.
drae, I think either would be fine. I think the problem usually arises when you have a
central fluorescent and then start mixing in other types of light. BTW I like those
Kichler UC fixtures, good quality feel to them. Remember if you use a halogen
pendant, they are high glare and very hot, something to consider.
wildchild, Yes about 30" off the wallwould work well. From your description sounds
like some of your cabinets have 2 or 3 feet above them. Have you considered doing
any uplighting on top?
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RE: drae
drae - halogen is a type of incandescent, but I won't split hairs. Any fixture you buy that will
take a line voltage halogen lamp, or a PAR lamp, will also take a line voltage incandescent
lamp. Now, the downlight that you bought was probably designed to work best with either a
PAR or an "R" or "BR" type of lamp, but any medium based lamp will fit. So you shouldn't
have to return the cans.
What most people like in terms of pendants these days tends to be low voltage halogen using
MR16 bulbs. It is also very popular to see "monorail" lighting in lieu of individual pendants
over islands and in other areas previously suited by multiple pendants. Take a look at
www.techlighting.com , they have some pretty neat stuff.
The answer to "can you mix different types of light" is yes, and in your case the kinds of light
are so similar that you shouldn't have any worries.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt - Hi! The working area of my kitchen is approx 13x15 and my electrician setup up
the cans in 2 L shapes. Each L run to be on its own switch/dimmer. Is this common or
completely wacky? I didn't give it much thought and I honestly don't know if/when I'd use
one L over the other and will probably just flick them all on at the same time (there's 10
cans). We no longer have that electrician for other reasons and my GC's guy has taken over.
But I was just curious if this is something you've seen before.
btw: I'm on LI too, in fact my father owned a Locksmith shop for 30+ years out here.
Perhaps your paths have crossed. Your name off your website was very familar.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ltngbolt,
I have sort of a similar situation as Hunzi, in that we want no cans. Although my ceilings are
only 8.5'. I don't have any pictures of the current state of our kitchen, but have a layout of
where the ceiling light boxes are, and a perspective drawing from the cabinet company that
built our cabinets. We were also thinking of schoolhouse style pendants, but not sure how it
would work. We have a light over our prep sink, two lights flanking the cooktop on the
island, and two lights shining into our glass front cabinets. Right now they are all plain
porcelain bases until we decide on style of lighting, and the light levels are ok. I can see
everything in the main sink, it just seems a little dim in the lower left corner, near the desk. We
will have undercounter lights under the two upper cabinets, and another one above the desk.
The current thinking on the lights is: flush mounts on the two lights in front of the upper
cabinets, school house pendants flanking the cooktop, and a simple pendant over the prep
sink. Does that sound like it might work out ok? Comments/concerns?
Thanks
Gina,
Hi neighbor :) Yes that is normal and I would encourage it. Myself I try not to have
more than 6 cans on one switch. I bet you'll find sometimes you will come into the
room and don't need all the lights. If possible I try to get a small section on a switch,
like 2 lights over an island for instance. Then when someone comes into the kitchen
for a midnight snack, they don't need sunglasses.
abm760,
I think with fixtures in the placement you have will work. I do have one concern, the
main sink. Both your lights are behind the user which can cause a shadow problem.
A small light over the sink on a switch nearby can alleviate that. It could be a
recessed can or a fixture to match the others.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LeeC,
I may be wrong, but I think what he meant by "retrofit fluorescent bulbs in the medium base
kits" is taking a normal light kit for a fan and instead of using incandescent bulbs, installing
compact fluorescents. Medium base BTW is your standard light bulb's base size.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ltngbolt, I was concerned about that too, once we had the ceiling done and going back
would be a pain. There is a bit of a shadow, but it hasn't been bad, with the simple fixtures I
have up now. The front of the sink is a little darker than the back, but not bad enough to go
through the hassle of putting holes in the ceiling to pull the wire. I could probably put it on the
same circuit with everything else without creating additional holes, though. All the boxes in
that ceiling are old work boxes on one kind or another, so I could pull one down, drill over
into the joist bay, and pull from the hole for the new light. That is, if I do add one in the future.
Thanks for the feedback.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt, thanks for all the time you are putting in to answer everyone's questions. Here are
mine.
I have a vaulted ceiling in my new kitchen. The electrician said there were 2 options for the
Halo cans - either to put in regular cans and then use an eyeball trim(expensive) to direct the
light straight down or to use specialized vaulted ceiling cans (the H47 series, I think) and use
normal(310) and cheaper trim. He said that the second option would be far more cost
effective and that's how we proceeded. But now that I'm looking around for trims, I find out
that the specialised cans need a special trim(478 series) and they cost about $25 each. The
electrician is still insisting that we can use the 310 trims that cost about $12 each. He said that
they would fit almost flush.
What do you think?
Second question - what is the difference between a wall wash trim and an eyeball trim? Can
one be used in the place of another?
Last one - Undercabinet fluorescents - can I use these for a desk area? ie will they provide
enough light to read by on a regular basis? Or should I go with halogens? Also, could you
recommend a good brand/model for the uc fluorescents(we've got to have them, CA code) at
a good price.
Thank you so much!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt - thank you for the reassurance! I appreciate it :)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Great discussion, everyone!
Any thoughts on pendants (or other fixtures) where, instead of low-voltage bi-pin halogens,
LV bi-pin Xenons are substituted (see below for bulb example). We tentatively have 5
pendants planned for a nearly 11 ft long 42" eating counter (18" wide under an 8' ceiling) and
are wondering whether the reduced lumen output will light the space adequately. Otherwise, it
seems attractive for the lower heat output.
Also, part of the discussion above got me rethinking all the cans we had planned for counter
illumination (we will have no upper cabinets), and that perhaps ceiling-mount fixtures (that
take advantage of the reflective properties of the ceiling) are worth considering. Any thoughts
on that?
Thanks!
- J.
Here is a link that might be useful: Bi-pin Xenon lamps
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
biti,
A wall washer is a trim kit that essentially directs the light out of a recessed can at an angle so
that it sheets a vertical surface with light. You can see a couple in this picture....
http://www.acuitybrandslighting.com/Library/Brands/LL/Downlighting/Commercial%20Optica
l%
An eyeball is designed to be used as an accent light, or to provide flexibility in directing spots
of light, and is not intended for the same use.
The halogens you mention would go great under a desk cabinet if you prefer your books to
be on fire as you read. :) Otherwise, this is a perfect application for fluorescent - make sure
you choose a quality fixture! Most folk with intense dislike of fluorescent lighting simply
haven't seen quality, and I'd hate for them to find another convert in you!
CA does require that the general source of lighting in a resi kitchen be a high efficacy source,
ie fluorescent. In Sacramento - and I like to think that this is partially due to many discussions
I've had with our plan check department - undercabinet alone is not sufficient. Hopefully, this
is an indication of things to come in the rest of the state, so check with your building
department to make sure that your lighting design will be up to code.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
led
JohnFH
Try something really different. Find a retrofit LED in an MR16 housing! I found one on sale at
ebay of all places - I assure you I am not trying to sell them.....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2794104595&category=2020
The light is good. They are typically found in an assortment of colors, and even made with a
chip that allows the bulb to constantly change to all colors of the rainbow. But, unless you are
throwing some very funky parties, you would probably want to stick with white, and the color
of the white LEDs can be very good, the quality of halogen light.
The energy usage is very good. about 2 watts? if memory serves. Even if you left them on all
of the time, the payback period would be relatively short, due also to outstanding lamp life
(100,000 hours).
I am planning on picking up a few for my home for a test drive. I will have to let everyone
know how they work out....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
biti2004,
Okay, I don't want to disagree with your electrician but the 310 trim is not a listed
trim by Halo for that can. That's not to say it won't work, just stating the facts. The
trims for the h47 sloped ceiling cans are a little pricey. You can use a normal 78
eyeball, but that would defeat the whole purpose of putting in the sloped ceiling cans
in the first place. The reason the 310 is not listed is it is made for a straight can so it
goes up the same distance all around inside. A trim designed for a sloped can is
made at an angle so that the light can de dispersed evenly leaving the fixture.
As for fluorescent UC lights and reading, I really have to say it is a matter of choice.
I would not advise halogens either in that case. If you like fluorescent light they
would be the most cost effective. If your looking for incandescent type light perhaps
a low voltage linear system would suit you better. But it will be more expensive.
Danimal answered the wall wash question so I won't repeat it. Hope this helps. If you
need to know what trims are listed for that can here they are:
498P or W
496P or W
417P or W
78 any finish
1417P or W
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
lighting
JohnFH,
Pertaining to the xenon compared to halogens, would need to know wattage volts of each to
compare. With 5 fixtures over that area sounds like you would be fine either way.
Concerning recessed cans, I have a different view than Danimal, which I am sure is already
evident. In cases where a certain look is to be achieved such as a very traditional setting like
we talked about earlier with tin ceilings Ceiling lights can be a great asset. That said, when
recessed cans fit the decor I think they are superior to anything else, giving you the best light
exactly where you need it. Using overhead lights in a kitchen will no doubt leave you making
shadows because at counters, sinks, cabinets and appliances you will be standing between
the light source and the subject.
Lighting is a subjective topic and we all have different ways of looking at things. Kitchens are
rooms that require the most thought when it comes to lighting. I will be the first to admit, when
it comes to kitchens I am not real strong about being energy efficient. I tend to strive for a
kitchen lighting plan that can accomodate the many different demands we put on it. Today we
use our kitchens not just to cook a meal. When we have a family and children we tend to live
in that room. Doing homework, paying bills, preparing meals, eating and entertaining.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Everyone mind humoring me in a little discussion of track lighting?
I'm building a 1-1/2 story, timberframe home. The living and dining areas will be open to the
roof peak with sheetrock between the beams. The kitchen (open to LR & DR) will have a
T&G pine ceiling at 8 ft, again with the beams exposed.
These beams are substantial so I'm assuming that light from cans or a ceiling mounted
flourescent fixture would be awfully broken up/shadowy because of them.
It seams that for areas in timberframe homes, track lighting is the obvious choice and the most
common. If that's the case, what do I need to know about different types of tracks and, in
particular, how does one use them in high ceiling areas so that they cast sufficient light without
shining in your eyes?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BernerFolk,
Track lighting in the situation you describe is common as you say. One factor about
track lighting is it is generally for directional and accent lighting and not necessarily
the best choice for general lighting. Of course in some cases, such as the one you
describe, high ceilings and timber beams, it may be the only viable solution. The
track system of tracks and heads is basically adjustable lampholders. There are a
multitude of different styles to choose from but the bulb is what you need to be
concerned with.
If the ceilings are very high you may want to think about par halogen bulbs. Low
voltage MR16 bulbs can give pretty intense light over distance if you need to have
concentrated light from a distance. To deal with the problem of glare in your eyes it's
all a matter of placement. One of the beautiful things about track lighting is you can
light an area from another area you can place the fixtures in such a way to avoid
looking right at them.
Of course there will always be a place in the room that you will be able to look into
the light, you can avoid the most common traffic paths from having that problem.
Lighting the left side of the room from the right side and the right from the left is an
example. If you gave me a drawing I could show you some examples of layout ideas.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltng -- Earlier in the thread you talked about incandescent bulbs throwing a yellowish light. I
have cans in my kitchen with butter-colored cabinets and sunny yellow walls. I was thinking
yesterday that it's a bit too yellow in there. So do you recommend switching out to halogen
bulbs in the cans to get a whiter light? Or could i do to the special white daylight "verilux" type
bulb? Do those work in the ceiling cans?
Also, must I use floodlight type bulbs in the cans or will regular bulbs do?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt:
RE. Xenon vs. halogen bi-pins, a typical bi-pin halogen (JC-20, 12v/20W) puts out 350
lumens, while a similar Xenon (BP-20-12V-CL) also 12v/20W, puts out 192 lumens. The
comparison between 12v/50W in halogen and Xenon is 950/750 lumens respectively.
- J.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt, I have this dream of being able to walk up to my island and turning on the
mini-pendants by touching a metal rail running under the perimeter of the counter. I'd love to
be able to turn the lights on and off from anywhere without having to walk around the island.
(I'm always scheming...) I also love the bright, dimmer, dimmest aspect of touch lights. Is this
a totally impractical idea??? (I just can't figure out why it would be...) Is there a way to do
this that would make it a good idea???
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
We now have fluorescent light in a dropped 7 foot ceiling over one half of the kitchen with
some canned lights for accent. I would like to remove the fluorescent and replace it with more
cans to update the look. My husband is afraid we will loose the ability to make the room
really bright whenever we need to. Opinion please. Should it stay or go?
Thank you very much for your help.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
JohnFH, Danimal, ltngbolt - OMG! Would those xenon bipins work in my tech lighting
pendants?!! I have the "meteor" pendants, and the dimmest bulb I could find that would fit
them is a JC Type Bi-Pin base: JC35/35 Watt. The 20 watt bi-pins have pins that are too
close together to fit in the lights. I would *love* to get 20W or even 15W.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
fatlester,
There are several different types of bulbs you can use to help that situation.
Halogen as you said, will give you a whiter light so that is one option. A good quality
fluorescent flood will also accomplish this as well. GE makes a series of bulbs called
Reveal. I honestly have not used them yet but I intend to try them. They are
supposed to give a full spectrum true color light. A good way to try a bulb and see
it's effect on the subject matter is to get one of those clip on lamp holders. I'm sure
you have seen them, they have a metal reflector cone with a switch on the socket, a
short cord and a clamp. They are very cheap. By placing a bulb you want to try in it
and shining it on the subject you can get a good idea of what to expect.
JohnFH, I would go with the xenon bulbs if it were me.
Samedis,
When you say fluorescents in a drop ceiling do you mean lay in fixtures or fixtures
above the ceiling with plexi sheets in place of tiles? How large an area is this and
how many fluorescents do you have now?
Claire,
Not a bad idea, I just don't know of anyone that makes a touch metal bar. On the
other hand the technology is out there for it and there may be a product that I am
just not aware of.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
bi-pins
Posted by: ltngbolt (My Page) on Sat, Mar 20, 04 at 10:52
weed30,
Sorry, I missed that one. Xenon bulb replacements are made for most of these bulbs.
You need to find out the base size. For instance G-4 is a size. Then you should be
able to find a bulb in a lesser wattage.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you. Somehow I think I remember G6. I will just take the current bulb to the lighting
store so they can match it up.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltgnbolt, Do you think there'd be a way to, uh, retrofit the available technology to make it
work? I always seem to have these ideas before the actual product is available!!! I need an
inventive mind to help me figure this out... Anyone?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltng-- a clarification as I'm confused: You're saying that I can use the Reveal florescent flood
lamps in regular ol ceiling cans that normally take incandescent floods? And use the same
dimming system? (decora with slow turnoff).
I do have a clip on reflector.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
fatlester,
Yes the reveal light bulbs are not fluorescent. They are specially made incandescent.
Like I said I don't know too much about them so you will have to do a little
homework. You can use compact fluorescent floods in your cans in place of the
incandescent bulbs and they do make dimmable ones but they are more expensive.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Here's a link to the info on the Reveal bulbs in case anyone else is interested. They
look like just what I need as a balance to all the buttery colors in my house and
especially in the kitchen. According to the website, the bulbs are made with a special
element that filters out the yellow. They are available at Target and K-Mart and
certainly worth a try!
Thanks for the lead, ltng -- very helpful. I'll let you know how they work.
Here is a link that might be useful: GE Reveal bulbs
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt: if you are still reading this thread I need some help. Our house was built in 1924 and
as I get older I am finding the lighting in most rooms is insufficient for me.
For example, in our bedroom we have one overhead light and two lamps on either side of the
bed. With all the lights on, I still find it dim in there. What are my options?? Ideally I would
like to add maybe recessed lights in each corner but not sure of the cost of all that. We have
a solidly built house with plaster everywhere. I don't like the looks of track lighting and
switching on 4 lamps every time I enter or exit the room seems too much work for me.
Our living room has no overheadlight, just two lamps and a fireplace. I need more light here.
We have very mature trees so our area is pretty shady and there is a screened porch off the
living room with two french doors leading to the screened porch, and one other window but
on a cloudy day it is dark in here in the daytime. Definitely dark at night. It definitely is cozy
and perfect for company but you could not do homework in this room.
These are two examples of the light situation in our home but overall it is underlit for me.
What do you recommend? Any wireless lighting options out there so I don't have to make a
bunch of holes in the plaster? Is there some new technology with lightbulbs that I could take
advantage of? My husband does not have this problem, just me, so he ia mainly unmotivated
to help out here.
Thank you for your advice.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
susanf242,
I understand your dilemma. Unfortunately plaster ceilings and walls can become a
real mess when trying to update the electric. If there is access above in the way of
an attic, it can be kept to a minimum. For somebody willing to take his time, and
providing the integrity of the plaster is good, you can do a recessed lighting job with
minimal damage.
As far as wireless the answer is no and yes. With some of the smart lighting systems
out today you can avoid running switch legs but you still need power at the fixtures.
The switches can be in the form of remotes.
To keep the damage to a minimum, center ceiling fixtures are one option. Another
option is wall sconces. By placing them strategically above receptacles to get a
power source you can use smart products to control them. Doing it this way it may be
possible to avoid damage altogether.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt:
I have a relatively simple question (I hope). Currently we have incandescent recessed can
lights in the ceiling. We are going to have all (opaque) glass cabinet uppers (Aviskt doors
from Ikea) and we are removing the soffits so they will be the taller doors. We are thinking of
using GE Premium florescent under cab lighting, but don't know what to use for the inside
cabinet lighting. I understand the light will very likely not reach the bottom shelf of the
cabinets. I'm a little wary of halogens since they seem to get so hot -
Oh I almost forgot, we are going to have a 2' x 4' flared skylight in the center (recessed cans
will go around the skylight). I've attached a copy of our plan -
Anyway, what's the best light to use in cabinets? And will it look strange to have the
combination of incandescent, florescent and whatever we end up with inside the cabinets?
TIA you are really wonderful!
as well.
As an electrical contractor and being in the construction field for over 25 years there
are some consistent mistakes I see made in new homes and renovations. Maybe
some of this can be helpful.
A house or any particular room can be carefully planned, well thought out and
perfectly executed but without the proper lighting it never really comes to life. A
perfect example is a tile back splash in a kitchen. Without some nice under cabinet
lighting to show it off it never really reaches it's potential as an eye opener.
As you plan each room there are three basic forms of lighting. General Lighting -
which light you need in a room to function. A means to safely navigate the room in
the dark of night. Accent Lighting - light that highlights a particular item or items of
importance to you or the room design. Task lighting - light that serves a function
related to a particular task or area where work is performed.
A kitchen benefits most from all three forms of lighting in most cases. Recessed
lighting combined with a pendant or two and possibly a ceiling fan can provide the
general lighting. Under cabinet lighting serves two functions. It acts as Task lighting
for working on the countertop as well as Accent lighting to highlight that beautiful
countertop and back splash. Additional accent lighting can be added in glass
cabinets, which really brings them to life. In some cases where crown molding is
installed and there is space above some cove lighting can create a wonderful effect
and ambience to a room.
In a living room a couple of well placed wall washers can turn an fireplace wall that
seemed ordinary into a piece of art. Perhaps you are planning on a wall to display
photos or a collection of art posters. Wouldn't it be nice to light that independently
and show it off? Along with the lighting, the way in which they are switched is almost
as important. A room with 9 recessed lights that all come on at once lacks
forethought.
In any room by breaking the lights that are switched into sections or patterns and
through the use of dimmers, a room can take on many personalities and moods.
When considering switches it is also important to consider traffic flow through the
house. There is nothing worse than a setup where you have to go back and turn a
light off only to proceed in the dark. With the proper planning and use of 3 way and 4
way switches the house can be so much more user friendly.
If you find this info useful let me know and I can keep going.............and going..........and
going lol
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
This is just the thread I was hoping to find! *smile* We are preparing to embark on a full
kitchen re-do. I can hardly wait to rid the ceiling of that "lovely" fluorescent box! The question
is, what to replace it with? Our kitchen is a small galley, 11 1/2 x 8 1/2. It is open on both
ends, (the kids love to run circles through it), and there is a 33"sq window at one end. Next
to the window is part of the slider door, so we do get some natural light, although none of it is
direct because there is a covered patio directly outside. We have been looking at those "new"
bendable track lights, but we are concerned that the five halogen bulbs wouldn't give off
enough light at night. (Any thoughts?) Recessed lights are another option. The kitchen ceiling
is directly below a large attic, so it is easily accessible. (We've installed can lights before
elsewhere.) Do you think recessed lights are a better solution than the bendable track light? If
so, how many cans would you recommend for a space that size? The "general lighting" is
giving us the hardest time. As much as we dislike the fluorescent box, it is what we're used to.
I sure appreciate any help you are able to give! Thanks so much!
Stacie
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
I'm also having trouble with our general lighting plan. How do you determine the
number/placement of recessed lights? And what features should you look for in these lights?
I'm going to have an L-shaped kitchen with island and was thinking of pendant lights over the
island and table, plus under-cabinet lights, in addition to the recessed lights.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tipsLaura, I'm having the same kind of kitchen lighting but am
confused about the undercabinet kind. Do you know what you are getting?
Keep going ltngbolt! I wish our electrician was as helpful as you are. Thanks!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Meggswife I drew a quick layout for a galley kitchen from your explanation, not sure
if it's right. As for the lighting in a kitchen I prefer recessed cans. One main reason
is you can place the lights close enough to the counters that you won't get shadows.
About 24" off the wall which puts the center of the light even with the outside edge
of the countertop. Of course ceiling joists can alter the layout. As for the size of the
cans, in a smaller room you may want to go with a smaller can like a halo H-5 which
is a 5" can or you can go to something in the 4" range but then you may need 8
lights as opposed to 6. If the room looks like I drew a ceiling fan in the center could
make a nice addition as well, but no light kit on it just a clean close to the ceiling fan.
Laura, Pendants over the island is a great look and works fine as a look with
recessed lighting in the room. Placement of the recessed lights depends on the size
of the can. For standard 6" cans in a kitchen setting with 8 foot ceilings, I don't like
to go more than 4-5 feet between fixtures. I will try to elaborate more later, need to
get off to a job right now.
Here is a link that might be useful: Galley Kitchen
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Keep going ltngbolt! What do I do for light in the 1/2 of my kitchen that has exposed, hand
hewn beams? The "working half of the kitchen" (the two sides are divided by a peninsula with
recessed cans over the stove) has a regular plaster ceiling. It will have an island that I plan to
put a pendant over. But what do I do about lighting in the non-working half? I have a
fireplace there, a couch and my kitchen table - pushed up against the peninsula. Right now we
just use lamps but it always seems dark. - Crey
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt:
Please give your opinion re: mixing different types of light in the kitchen.
I currently have halogen undercabinet lighting, flourescent general lighting and an incandescent
chandelier over the breakfast room table. To me, the lights all have different colors and it
gives a strange effect. What do you recommend for a new kitchen lighting plan?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
thanks ltngbolt! Would you please also comment on the "swiss cheese" look? I have seen so
many kitchen designs where there are way too many cans in the ceiling. Unneeded and looks
terrible.
I have only 5 cans in my ceiling, along the L of the counter, then 3 mini pendants over the
island. There are 4 more cans elsewhere in the main area - 2 over a couch and 2 over a
display cabinet. Then a fixture over the table. The original designer put 12 cans *just in the
kitchen area*! WITH PENDANTS!
Finally, I do have a burning need: My display cabinet needs lighting inside. Because of the
way the doors open I need lights that are less than 1" front to back. I also don't want anything
very bright, just a nice soft glow. These would be linked together or not, but ultimately would
be plugged in to the wall, no room for any more switches. Any suggestions? Thanks!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt,
Thanks so much for your informative comments. We're building a custom house. Do you
recommend getting a lighting designer or should a good electrician be able to advise properly?
Thanks.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt, How's it feel to be so...popular?!!! We've missed you and you didn't even know
you were missing!
Here's my dilemma: I think I'm covered for most of the lighting, and everything's on dimmers
with 3-ways in the appropriate place. We've got rope lighting 7 feet high, recessed task
lighting (halogen), and mini pendants over the island with two ceiling fans in the walkway
(incandescent). There are no upper cabinets and I'd love my low (around 6.5 inches)
backsplash to show up and glitter. Will the halogen task lighting be sufficient? (My other
concern is the halogen lights are too warm although they'll be 10 feet high...)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt,
As you can see, your post hit a nerve. The basic information you provided in the first note
was wonderful, yet many of us are still not clear on how much light. Like weed30, I am wary
of the "swiss cheese effect" (well-put, weed!) I have a bungalow that only had one ceiling light
in each room, and am trying to find a way to do the lighting that is efficient and effective, yet
still respectful of the home's style. I went from being adamant about no recessed lighting to
being open to it, but it seems the advice from electricians I am getting is more, more, more.
So my question is, with a modest size kitchen (12 x 15) that will have a ceiling fixture (general
light) over the table in the center, halogen lights within the range hood for task lighting there,
and a pendant light over the sink for that task lighting, how how much more lighting is really
necessary?
Do you follow some general guidelines when setting how much recessed lighting to put in?
How far from the counter edge do you recommend placement to avoid casting shadows
while working at the counter?
Thanks for your comments.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt,
Thank you so much for your helpful response, (and helpful sketch)! After seeing your
drawing, I agree that recessed lights will work/look best. You are a "light-saver"! Have a
great day!
Stacie
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Wow I am overwhelmed with the response. I promise I will answer all these
questions. I work on this mostly in the evening since I am busy during the day
physically doing the same. Tonight I will get to these.
One thing I could use help with is weed30, how did you get that link right in the text
of your message? It would certainly let me answer easier if I could do that. As for
that cabinet Satco makes a nice product but it is not on their website. It comes in 10,
20 and 30" lengths and is basically a 3 sided metal frame with one open side that the
light eminates from. The light is mild and not bright and perfect for that application.
It comes in black metal which suits wood well.
More to come
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Crey, the situation of 1/2 the room with exposed beams you can use a low voltage
track light. Something along the lines of a juno track if the beams are not really
large. The reason is with a low voltage track and heads the whole setup is small and
can easily be hidden and not so obtrusive as big bulky track heads. I am not a big
fan of track lights but there are times it is perfect for an application. They use
halogen lights and can give good lighting that can be directed where you want it.
spacific, I can tell you my preference but with my customers I first get a feel for how
much light they feel comfortable with. For me I want a room to be capable of
different moods and functions. Take a bedroom for instance. Most times when in use
you don't need much light since your sleeping or involved in other low light activities.
But there are times such as cleaning, changing sheets, making beds and getting
dressed that you may want to have good light to see what you are doing. In most
rooms in the 12 x 12 or 14 x 14 size by placing 4 recessed lights about 30" of each
corner symetrically on a dimmer, you can have excellent general lighting or romantic
lighting for those other times.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt: To have a clickable link, you just find the web address of the photo you want to
show. Then you insert it in between some simple HTML commands. ie:
<a href=http://www.greatlighting.com>Great Lighting</a>
Note that the "a href" has a space, but that is the only space in there. You can name the link
whatever you want, I used Great Lighting in the example. Make sure you don't forget to
"close" the link command by using the
</a>
command.
If you need more help, just email me and I can create the syntax for you. Click on my name
for the email link.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Thanks weed30, I will try and use it here. One of the best undercabinet lighting
systems I have used is Task Lighting It is a low voltage linear system. It is a little
more money than some others but quality wise I think it's the best.
As for the swiss cheese effect I suppose I would have to see a picture of a job that
you felt looked that way. I think if the lights are properly placed and layed out
symetrically the lights look like they should be there.
Different types of lighting can have a very noticeable effect on the color you see.
Incandescents cast a yellow tint and on some kitchen cabinets it can be an adverse
look. Halogen and most newer fluorescents can give a true color rendering to the
cabinet finish.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt, thank you for the tip on the Satco lights. I sent them an email describing what I want.
You may end up being sorry you posted your offer to help here...lighting is really a hot topic
and confusing to most!
We all hope you stick around though!!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Thanks for your comments ltngbolt.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt~ Thank you!
I am in the middle of a kitchen addition, and I've made most of the lighting decisions-
recessed cans, alabaster chandelier over table, pendant over sink.
I am still confused about under cabinet lights to light up my counter work space. Do you
recommend xenon, halogen, or fluorescent? Any particular brand? What about spacing?
Should they be installed at the front edge of the upper cabinet or the back edge touching the
wall?
Thanks for all your help!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ArtTeacher,
The actual type of light is really a matter of choice. The most economical and trouble
free are thinline fluorescents. You can purchase UC fluorescents from your local
electrical supply (my first choice) or a large home store. These we always mount
against the backsplash wall, hard wired. They provide ample light and the bulbs last
a couple of years.
If you want to go a little higher in price my favorite light is xenon and the company
Task Lighting makes a few different types. If you are doing a nice tile backsplash
you want to show off, these mounted near the front of the cabinet will really do the
job. The kitchen in the first group of photos in thisPhoto Gallery was done with Task
Lighting.
As far as spacing if you use fluorescents you want to go as large as you can under
each cabinet. With the low voltage linear lighting like Task, you want to try and have
it go from end to end on every cabinet row, of course remaining within any light rail
being installed.
Do you have any glass cabinets? If so don't overlook the potential to light them from
inside as well.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
We are building a new house and visited the lighting center our builder uses this week. We
were set to use xenon lighting under the cabinets. The designer recommended flourescent for
under the counter. They had two kitchens with xenon lighting on display. They both had
strong hot spot reflections in the counter from the bulbs. She said flourescent gives much
more even lighting. Not what I expected. Anyone experience bulb reflection with xenon
lighting?
Bob
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Bob,
What type of reflection were you seeing? Was it a granite countertop? What kind of
fixtures, was it a mini track or a strip, pucks or individual fixtures?
Remember, and this is the case with any lighting on a granite gloss counter, in any
dark solid colors especially. They act like a mirror and you will see the underside of
the cabinet as well as the lighting when you are standing in fron of the counter.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
I went to the library last night and one of the books (which was 6-7 years old) recommended
against recessed can lighting because it can be quite hot if you're standing under it. Is this
true? Most of you seem to be getting those can lights -- can you give me some advice on
what size to get and where to place them?
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
If your cans are halogen, yes, this could be possible. I have incandescent cans, and they are
terrific.
I have halogen pendants over the island, and the lights get HOT!! They only have 35w bulbs.
They are also incredibly bright - they hurt my eyes if I'm sitting at the island and glance up at
them. Wish they made 20w bi-pins in the size I need.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
The only time heat from fixtures is really a concern, providing of course
manufacturers recommendation for bulb wattage size is followed, is if the ceiling is
unusally low. In a normal setting, recessed cans should not make a real noticeable
difference in room temperature. That said, I have seen cases where there are so
many lights that it actually does add heat to a room.
Another factor is bulb wattage. Going back a few years it was not uncommon to put
150 watt floods in recessed cans. Now in that case, yes you could feel the heat. This
could account for what you read in the book. Today no one I know in this business
uses 150watt floods anymore.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Thanks for setting my mind at ease about the recessed cans. How many do you think I need?
My L-shaped kitchen (with island) and eating area will be 13' x 22' (the L itself is about
13'x14'). Do you scatter them all over the area or just near the countertops in the kitchen?
Oh and I was thinking of getting a solar tube too, maybe about 5' from the corner walls. We
have a window but it faces north. This lighting business sure is confusing, but I'd like to plan it
properly.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Laura, I have an L shaped kitchen that is 10' x 12' and I only have 5 cans along the counters.
The electrician wanted to put one out in front of the fridge/pantry but it would not have lined
up with the other cans, and besides there is a light in the fridge ;)
They are more evenly spaced than they look in the pic below - the angle I shot from was
funny.
Here is a link that might be useful: cans
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
weed30, the kitchen came out beautiful. I to would have suggested another recessed can
over the fridge. I will give you my reasoning but I don't discount your line of thinking. There is
no right and wrong in any of this, we all have different tastes. The reason is although the fridge
does have a light, the cabinets don't. In order to see well in those cabinets you would need
your pendants on. The other reason is with the recessed cans on the whole run of cabinets is
not uniformly lit. It seems that the light would be out of line but if it is placed the same distance
from the top of cabinet it looks okay.
If you have area opposite the L-shape kitchen that you need to light as well you can line some
of theses cans up with those to have a symmetrical pattern. Think about your switching
options as well.
Laura P,
A layout similar to the one in weed's picture, is a good one. Keeping the lights about
4 feet apart with an 8 foot ceiling and lining them up so the center of each is lined up
with the countertop edge gives you nice uniform light over the counters.
One other very important point. I know you mentioned a solar tube, which is great,
but always remember when designing a lighting plan you don't want to take daylight
into account. Believe it or not I have seen people design a room and later realize
that it actually gets dark at night and that big window is useless.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt: Any rule of thumb to tell if one's lighting plans are sufficient? My state (Calif) requires
fluorescent for general kitchen lighting. I plan to use use two clouds in my tiny galley (9'
measured to end wall cabs that reach ceiling). The 16" diam. version model uses two 13W;
the 20" diam. one uses four 13W. My older eyes need more & more light, but I'm wondering
if the 20" is overkill. Or can one just reduce the # of bulbs one uses in the fluorescent fixture?
Thx for your insights.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
I didn't realize that was the case in California, very interesting. Talk about the
governement controlling every aspect of your life. Okay off the politics.
A 13 watt fluorescent puts out about 800 lumens, a measure of light. In a setting like
a kitchen, where you want to have good working light you would want about 15
lumens per square foot. Using this formula, if your room is about 10ft x 10ft you
would need two 13 watt bulbs. If you need higher than average light levels due to age
or other factors you may want to consider the 4 bulb fixture.
If I were to make a suggestion it would be to go with a 4 foot cloud fluorescent that
takes either 2 or 4 40 watt tubes. One 40 watt fluorescent tube emits about 2400
lumens. Because you mentioned a galley kitchen a longer light would give you better
overall spread.
On the topic of fluorescent light here is a bit of information. Fluorescent bulbs are
rated with long life hours, in the 15,000 hour range. But I recommend to people all
the time to change the bulbs once a year for standard bulbs and once every two
years for compacts. The reason is the gas in fluorescents diminishes with time and
the lumen output after one year can be as much as 30%. Unlike an incandescent
bulb which just plain goes out, fluorescent bulbs get dimmer with time so you
gradually get used to it and may not even realize your living with less light. That is
until you put those new bulbs in!
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Okay...my turn now. I just had my first walk-thru to consider lighting. I think I can handle the
rest of the house, but I have questions about my kitchen.
Background: The kitchen is 20' x 32,' including the eating area. The built-in hutch (on right
looking at picture) will be lighted. There will be lighting that comes in the hood (4 halogens).
Inside the alcove, I had planned a "can" over each base cabinet flanking the range (there are
no upper cabs here). These would be outside the hood, but inside the alcove and not much
use to the rest of the kitchen. I had also planned 2 cans inside the valance over the sink area.
I had planned one large chandelier (or two smaller ones) over the kitchen table (this area
would be at the "bottom" of the picture, way opposite the range wall, but it is not shown).
The island closest to the range wall is the prep island. The other island is for
homework/entertaining.
Questions: I need to figure out how to light the islands and the perimeter of the kitchen. I had
thought I would put 3 cans along the sink wall (in addition to the two behind the valance) to
hit 50/50 on the counter edge. I thought I'd put two at the built-in hutch, each one closer to
where a side of the hutch meets a fridge (the hutch is between two refrigerator/freezers), to hit
50/50 on the counter edge.
I thought I'd put 2 over the prep island (6' x 4'), across the width. The second island is
trickier. Seating is only on the far end (toward the bottom of the page). I don't want to cast
shadows over the kids' shoulders while they are working.
I will have undercabinet lighting at the sink cabs and in the Baking Center (in the left
"alcove"). But it doesn't seem like I'll have enough light in the Baking Center. Should I just
stick another can in the area? I know exactly what Weed means about the Swiss cheese
effect!
I plan to have several different lighting zones. Also, I saw some really cute pendant lights that
I thought would look great, as a series of 3, over my prep island...but I don't want to clutter
up the ceiling, nor do I want to detract from the range wall, which is the whole reason for
building the new house. (Okay, just kidding, we were going to build anyway!)
Thank you for your advice! Where should I send my payment for consulting services??!! Deb
Here is a link that might be useful: Overhead View of Kitchen
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Okay I took your drawing and drew in the lights the way I understood them from
your description. I did add one light in the area to the right of the stove area because
it will be a dark area otherwise. As far as the rest, a layout like this should work
well. The light to the right of the sink area should help light up your baking center as
well if it is placed near enough to the end. It may create a bit of a shadow when your
standing there but if you add another one there it may look awkward. Is there any
type of UC lighting in that area?
As far as over the work area island at the bottom of the drawing, I think pendants
are a good idea. Two is what I would go with to try to keep that focal point(stove
area) fairly unobstructed. As far as those pendants I would look for two features.
One would be fixtures that could take up to 100 watt bulbs each if incandescent and
something that has a frosted glass so you get light projecting outward as well as
down. The reasoning is with this size kitchen, which looks like it will be beautiful
BTW, you could use the extra light unless you want to go with more recessed lights.
As for payment, lol since you asked, tell everybody you can about my shopping
website. You'd have to email me though because it wouldn't be right if I listed it here.
Here is a link that might be useful: Your Kitchen with Lights Added
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt...you got it! Yay! One vote for the pendants. No one I've talked with likes the idea.
Oh yes, I forgot about the light in front of the pantry. Good catch. I'll also email you. Thank
you again!
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Glad to be of service :)
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Thank you ltngbolt! You have very helpful and kind to give us all of this advice - Crey
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Yes, thank you. I can see that the architect put the lights in the wrong places big time in our
kitchen. But at least the mistakes are on paper and I could change them with the electrician.
At a window/sink or window with major prep area, where would you put the recessed can?
Still at the counter edge? Thanks again for all the advice.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
IMO, the cans should always be on the counter edge. If they are out further, they will be
behind you and you will cast a shadow on whatever you are doing at the counter. Too close
in and they lose their "cone" - diminishing the amount of light you have in the kitchen.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Yes, you have really struck a nerve here. Thank you so much for your illuminating :) advice!
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
This is an extremely helpful thread! I have wired for undercabinet lighting but I am still very
undecided about whether or not I will install it. You see, I don't want them to be visible, but I
also do NOT want molding to hide them. We are going for a very sleek, retro-modern look,
Premier Bristol thermafoil cabs with a light green laminate countertop (Wilson Art Green
Glace). Molding just won't do. So I have basically been looking for the *skinniest* thing I
can find.
I've been looking at Xenon lights because they are cooler than halogen and we dislike the
coldness of flourescent lights. One solution that caught my eye was Pegasus Associates'
Xenon Low-Voltage Light Strip. Any experience with these? Does Task Lighting have an
equivalent or something else that will fit the bill? The button lights look promising, especially if
we recess them into the bottoms of the cabinets. BUT this doesn't seem to be the most
space-effective solution, obviously -- I can just imagine bumping the lamps every time I
unload the dishwasher.
Many thanks!
Here is a link that might be useful: Pegasus Xenon Light Strip
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Here is our lighting plan (you may have to scroll down on the link to see the schematic for
everything). Most of this is in place now, and we really love it. I think our GC thought we
were crazy, because it's a LOT of light (more than swiss cheese)! We were brightness happy.
Partly because it's a north room, and because we were doing deep, rich stained cherry, and
we wanted to be sure we could illuminate enough. Well, we can, but again, we're very
pleased with the results. We did these over 4 circuits, so we can control how much we want,
and dimmers are going in as well for additional control. I wanted to be able to create lots of
"moods" with the lighting, from bright for cooking to very soft for entertaining. And I wanted
the lights to show off the styling of the cabinets.
One thing we found was that lighting help was difficult to find. I think if I could have found a
lighting planner or expert, we would have, but we didn't quite know where to turn, so we did
it ourselves, with the help of a couple of books.
I'm really glad to see someone on-line who has knowledge and can give suggestions and
advice! This is a great thread, and should get bumped from time to time.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt - so kind of you to offer this advice. What would be your thoughts on lighting around
a pot rack? My design calls for an L-shaped section of counter: 5 feet along the wall with a 2'
long (36" wide) peninsula extending out into the room, with a hanging potrack above. (On the
opposite/overhang side, the peninsula will provide a total of 4' of sitting space.) There will be
wall cabinets along the entire 5 feet of wall. Thanks for any help!
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
benanas,
As far as the light in the sink area. I usually recommend that can be placed closer to
the wall in the case where a window is present and there is no wall cabinet.
Sometimes a smaller can and on a seperate switch near the sink. So mant customers
tell me they love having that seperate switch, so I would say it was a success.
aehughes,
Do the cabinets have any kind of reveal? About the tightest thing you can install is a
rope light which doesn't throw a great deal of light but is effective for ambience. The
other thing is Task Lighting (See the link below) Makes some very low profile
lighting, and it is bright. One fixture they have is 7/8".
femmelady,
I think you did a great job. In my eyes you can't have too much light in the kitchen.
There is no other room where lighting is more important. With the switches and
dimmers you get full control and have as much light as you need.
maggie_MI,
I need to ask a couple of questions on this one. Is the pot rack design a rectangle
with an open middle, an open grid or some other design? How far from the ceiling is
the rack. Are you looking for how to light around the rack for your counters, or did
you want to see how you can light the rack?
I have in the past used recessed cans over a pot rack, but there was some additional
ceiling height so it gave a nice effect. Let me know what you have and if by chance
you have a kitchen floorplan you can email it if you like.
Here is a link that might be useful: Task Lighting Fixtures
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
One aspect I find is often overlooked for it's lighting potential. This doesn't work in
all kitchens, but with ones that have a nice flow of upper cabinets and crown molding
with some space above, accent lighting above the cabinets is a show stopper. This
can be accomplished with several different products. Fluorescents, although not my
first choice, is one form of light. It does have a rather unique look but I prefer those
for tray ceilings with coves, that is an awesome look. Incandescent lighting is
another method with hollywood strips. My concern with those is the heat. I always
worry someone will put items that may be flammable above the cabinets for display,
like dried flowers.
The best solution I have found is rope lighting. It is economical both in cost and
useage. It doesn't generate dangerous heat levels. If purchased in an electrical
supply it can be made to size so you get complete coverage. There is one drawback
and that is you need 2 lines of it to get a nice effect. If you use 2 lines you just have
to leave a small space between them, which is not a problem since it's above the
cabinets and you can't see it anyway. It can also be dimmed. If you have seen some
of the kitchen pictures I posted here these were the type of over the cabinet light we
used.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
I noticed a question that comes up often is how to layout recessed cans or high hats.
In a kitchen setting, where good illumination is particularly important. the layout is
more critical than in say the living room. In order to create a layout that works well it
is important to understand the way the actual light eminates from the bulb. In the
case of a normal flood in a 6" recessed can, there is a 60 deg. beam of light.
This means in a room with 8 foot ceilings the circular pattern on the floor is about 9
feet in diameter. This however is not the whole picture. The most intense portion of
this light is in a circle of only 5 feet or so. The remainder is a diminishing amount of
light down to 0 at the edge. In a room requiring just general lighting placing the cans
5 to 6 feet apart will accomplish that, but in a kitchen there is another factor.
In a kitchen we are usually trying to illuminate the counters. The countertops are a
little over 3 feet off the ground. This reduces the beams width meaning 5 to 6 feet
will leave shadows or dark spots. By bringing the light in to a 4 foot spacing
eliminates this problem. See the diagrams to visualize this.
Here is a link that might be useful: Diagrams for Laying out Recessed Lighting
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt, thanks for all this great info; lighting baffles me but I can feel when it's right and
wrong. How do 10' ceilings affect the recessed can layout ?
In my 9x14 kitchen I specified 3 cans, 4' apart on each 14' length, 1' away from one 14' wall,
18" away from the other. That puts them 6.5' apart in the 9' direction - skylights take up the
space between them. One of the 14' walls is all window/glass door and the other has a 9 high
x 11 wide opening to the dining room. One of the cans is centered on a 5' wide cooktop
island at the edge of the counter. There will be a pendant over the 6' prep island, 4' away
from the window wall and uc florescent along the 9' wall. I like the look of lights above the
top cabinets (no soffits) but I won't be able to get up there to change them. Do I have enough
light ?
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt:
I posted earlier about the "funny" feel I get in my kitchen that has three different types of
lights: halogen undercab, flourescent bubble over island, and incandescent chandelier over
breakfast room table. The space is a long rectangle (12x23).
I think that cans are a good option for our kitchen because we have only 8' ceilings.
However, my husband doesn't like the idea of cans in the breakfast area, and I agree that a
hanging fixture helps to define the space somewhat. Plus, we do a lot of reading at the kitchen
table and the kids do their homework there.
Any ideas for us? FWIW, my decorator told us to avoid flourescent, and go with halogen for
"warmer" light. IMO, our undercab lights seem strangely yellow, perhaps in comparison to
everything else. And, of course, they heat up the cabinets.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Mary,
I'm wondering what type of halogen undercabinet lighting do you have? There could
be one or two reasons why they appear yellow. One is the white light from the
fluorescents interacting. The other which I have seen a few times is the color of the
cabinets and backslpash or counter. These can all affect how the light looks.
Recessed incandescents would probably blend in best with everything else. Of
course you could change the undercabinet lighting to fluorescent instead. These are
all a matter of cost. How much are you willing to spend to change it?
My first choice would be go with the recessed cans in the kitchen, leave the hanging
fixture over the table and then see how the undecabinets lights look at that point. I
can visualize it better if I know what the undercabinet lights are. Pucks? or strips or
individual fixtures?
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt: To answer your questions... the potrack I have now is a 30x20 open rectangle; the
top edge is 18" from the 8.5 feet high ceiling, and that seems to be a good height over a
counter. But I will probably need a smaller one in the re-design, and am leaning towards an
oval or round one with a grid to hold lids. I wasn't thinking of illuminating the potrack; the
countertop below will be a fairly important work center, so I was wondering how to
illuminate that. I've been working on getting a design together online that I could post, but
don't have one yet (maybe in a few days...) Thanks again for your help!! This forum really is
amazing.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt, thanks for the suggestion to use two sets of rope lighting. DH really wants to install
these above our cabinets. We have 9 foot ceilings and 42" upper cabinets so we have about
11 inches up there. I am unsure if I should put anything up there besides the lighting.
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JudeNY,
I am not sure I follow you. Do you mean the lighting is above the upper cabinets. It
sounds like the center of the cans would be at 1 foot which would line up with the
edge of the uppers. Do you have a drawing I could see? If what I am imagining is
right you have to be very careful. If there is any crown moulding, you could end up
blocking almost all the light.
If the lights that are one foot off the wall on the 14' glass wall I would still be
concerned that your light is too close to the wall. With 10' ceilings the 6.5 feet apart
will work. Do you have more room before the skylight to pull the lights further from
the wall. I don't like to put the lights closer than 24" to a wall and more like 30" if I
can. Unless of course your wall washing, then it's a different story.
Let me know if I am seeing this right.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Dear ltngblt:
We have strips under the cabs with two tiny halogen bulbs, don't know the brand (something
we picked up at Costco for $15 ea). They look yellow to me regardless of other lights on in
the room.
We'll be replacing everything, and I just want to "get it right". Plus, as I approach my fifties,
the more light, the better!
Mary
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Mary, I'll step in, although I am not an expert like ltngbot :) We have cans in the kitchen area
with incandescent bulbs in them, an incandescent fixture on a dimmer over the dining table,
flourescent undercabs and halogen pendants over the island.
I think our lighting is quite adequate and the only thing I would have preferred is that the
pendants were incandescent, but they only came in halogen. They are just really bright, and
not on a dimmer.
The new flourescents available are really terrific - no flicker, no "blue" look, instant on, etc. I
got mine at Home Depot, they are made by GE.
Here is an old post I copied from someone:
----------
Fluorescent, IMO, delivers the higher quality of light, provided that you use the proper fixture
with the proper lamps.
Old style fluorescent lamps (bulbs) were T12 (1-1/2" dia.) used with magnetic ballasts. The
colors readily available were warm white and cool white, both of them were equally crappy.
The magnetic ballasts tend to hum and flicker, and were moderately energy efficient.
Today, T-12/magnetic fixtures should be avoided. undercounter fixtures are available with
electronic ballasts and T8 and T5 lamps. T5 can get a little pricey. The electronic ballasts do
not hum or flicker upon start-up. Make sure the fixture you choose has electronic ballasts.
Today's fluorescent is available in a wide variety of colors - rated in 'degrees
Kelvin'. 3000K is a warmer color, close to incandescent or halogen but a much
crisper light. Personally, I find this to be too warm. 3500K is considered neutral in
color, and it's well suited for residential applications. 4100K is a common lamp color,
I personally think these work well in modern design scheme that would call for
cooler colors. Higher Kelvin ratings produce a whiter, ranging towards blue, light,
often called a daylight color. True, these are closer in color to the morning sun, but I
don't feel they work well in most residential applications.
Yes, you can dim a fluorescent fixture, but it is expensive and requires costly ballast
and special dimmer switches. Consider instead using a two lamp profile and
switching each row of lamps seperately for dual level control.
Use lamps with a high color rendering. Big box guys won't always know what this
means, and I'm not sure that lamps with an 80+ CRI (color rendering index) are
available there. Check with a lighting distributer for a much better selection of
fluorescent lamps.
Osram-Sylvania and Philips make the best fluorescent lamps. GE is the third of the
big 3 lamp manufacturers. Personally, I wouldn't even consider any off-brands other
than these.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Dear ltngblt & everyone,
Do you think recessed fixtures are the best (and necessary) option for general/accent lighting?
I have a 120+ yr old Victorian farmhouse and I'm trying to give the kitchen as much of a
"been here since they built it" feel as possible. So I planned to use school house type
pendants for general lighting, and Xenon undercabinet lighting, and was hoping to avoid
recessed lights because I'm planning to install a pressed tin ceiling and really don't want it full
of swiss cheese holes. Right now, the plan calls for cabinets to the ceiling on at least 2 walls,
and our ceilings will be aproximately 9.5-10ft tall.
Looking at some of the plans on this thread, I suspect I may regret the no recessed fixtures
rule I had created, but I'm just afraid they'll look way too modern. At the same time, the
kitchen is on the north side of the house, gets limited sunlight (plus none obviously at night)
and I'm a light freak. One of my pet peeves about the current kitchen is that it's dim. I'd hate
myself if we finished this kitchen and had the same problem.
Always ;-)
Hunzi
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Hunzi: I've been exactly where you are. We went with four individually switched school house
lights in the kitchen and another in the connected scullery (a couple on dimmers); fluorescent
undercab lights, and sconces between the over-counter windows. Our kitchen gets little
natural light. The schoolhouse lights have tall brass poles that puts the lights down where there
are usuful -- probably about 8-8.5 feet instead of way up high around the tall ceiling.
We're delighted! Plenty of light, and we're old enough to need it. Plan your placement
carefully and I don't think you'll regret bypassing the new! new! new! looking recessed
lighting.
Good luck! Kate.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
I have a question about general lighting and ceiling fans. I would love to have a ceiling fan in
our kitchen. Do you think it would be best to get a ceiling fan with a light kit or a ceiling fan
with no light and a few recessed cans to use for general lighting? The area is 7 feet wide X 13
feet long. I am leaning towards no light on the fan and recessed cans on 2 separate switches.
Thoughts appreciated.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Kate,
Thanks so much! I was really beginning to worry that I'd be making a mistake.
The current kitchen is about 13x11 and has a 9ft ceiling. It only has a triple 60watt bulb
overhead fixture centered, plus a single 60watt fixture over the sink plus an undercabinet
florescent we put in over the main work space. I walk in and turn them all on, and feel it's too
dim but tolerable.
The new kitchen will be 22x13 (we're opening up the adjoining space) best described as a
very wide galley, double galley or an open U plan because we have 4 doors/3 pathways to
deal with (access to the outside, the office, and the basement & dining room). The ceiling will
go back to the original height less any space we need for a beam if we can't tuck it up in the
joists, so anywhere from 9.5ft to 10.5ft. We'll have cabinets on one of the short walls, you
enter from the dining room, and there's a counter parallel immediately on your right, sort of a
scullery/butler's wall with the dish storage, DW, sink then the corner to the wall opposite the
door with a 30in deep counter and the main work space possibly with no wall cabinets
because there's not room for many due to the window close to the corner and an AGA sitting
close to the end of the run. The wall beside the door will be pantry/storage with 2 Subzeros,
lots of pantry space and a 3ft sandwich station/counter landing zone between the fridge &
freezer. The last wall has no cabinets because there's a walkway zone there to the basement
and my office, although I'm strongly considering building a wall of cabinetry there and creating
a hall, because I really need storage space for coats, brooms etc, so I could turn the backside
into a long hall/mudzone which we're giving up to gain the extra room in the kitchen. I'm also
toying with putting in a long but narrow island, maybe 6 or 8 by 2, which would give me loads
more storage and a great workspace. I can't go wider because I'd run into problems with the
width of the passageways. If I do, I'll locate a run of pendants down the middle of it.
I love the idea that the school house lights bringing the light down closer to where it is needed.
I hadn't thought about that.
I haven't decided on any glass front cabinets yet, but if I do, I'll see if we can do the accent
lighting inside them. (Just not sure how well that works if you do not have glass shelves)
I'd kill for a design that allowed for a separate butler's pantry or a scullery. Best I'll be able to
do is move all the dish/linen storage closer to the dining room door.
Please share photos if you can! I'm still in the wish/plannng stages and every idea counts!
especially since it's much harder to find the old house lovers/renovators out there with ideas.
Always ;-)
Hunzi
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt, thanks very much. I was concerned about the 6.5' distance but really wanted those
big skylights. The cans are centered on the skylights (which are centered on the windows) in
one direction and can't go any closer to the skylights without appearing too close.
I'm sorry I'm not able to scan my drawings. I'll try to clarify. The walls where the lights are 1'
from the wall do not have cabinets on them. The 3 lights are centered on very tall windows
and french door and I meant for them to be ambient light and sort of a window wash. There
will be lace curtains on those windows which will have windowboxes and they open on to a
deck. I was hoping to throw light on the windowboxes without having the back of the house
lit like a movie set. From the 9' walls where the cabinets are the cans fall 18" from the edge of
the counters on the 9' walls. I intended for those to illuminate the interior of the cabinets and
have the undercounter lights for work light. The other 14' "wall" is mostly open to the dining
room and those 3 lights are 1' from the opening. The middle can on that wall is centered on
the countertop edge of the cooktop island which is centered on the opening into the dining
room - that island is partially pushed into the dining room. The pendant is centered on the
prep island which is centered on the middle window. Thanks very much for your help.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
oooh, Hunzi, an Aga should look great! What color? I'm sorry that I don't have any pictures;
it's a 15-year old remodel and the zillions of pictures that I DO have are all film and so full of
kids & cats & dogs & people that it's hard to see the kitchen . . . maybe I should take the
digital camera home from work & snap a few.
e-mail me if you want more details, though. I (modestly) consider it a major success!
Kate.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Kate,
The AGA will most likely be cream or black although I have a soft spot for the color red too.
Cream is the front runner, in a very classic creamy/pale yellow kitchen with soapstone
counters and either beadboard or subway tile backsplash. Antique Heart Pine on the floor.
The inspiration kitchen is the Crown-point kitchen I posted above. I'm nuts about that kitchen.
Always ;-)
Hunzi
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt, Thanks so much for posting here. I've found so many answers to questions I've had.
I will be having a 9 foot run of 12 inch deep by 120 inches tall cabinetry to to used as a
shallow pantry on one side of my kitchen. Top 30" will be obscure glass.
My question is, when putting recessed lighting in front of tall units do you measure the 30"
distance out from the wall or the face of the unit. The ceiling height in front of cabinets will be
12.5 to 13 feet. Recommendations? Thanks.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
There are certainly times when modern recessed lighting does not conform with the
decor. A victorian house with tin ceilings would surely qualify. Using pendants is a
good solution. If you need some type of guide us about 4-5 watts of light per square
foot for a kitchen. That would be keeping it on the well lit side. Any less than 3 watts
per square foot is to dim IMO for a kitchen. This is just a very basic guideline and
applies to incandescent lighting only.
LeeC,
I always like to go with no light kit on the ceiling fan unless it is going over a table.
Recessed lighting with a ceiling fan with no light will work. One note of caution. Try
to get a close to the ceiling type of fan, ceiling hugger, and be sure the lights are not
too close to the fan. If the fan is low or the lights are too close you end up with a very
annoying strobe light effect from the lights in the ceiling.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
lighting cabinet
wildchild,
I would have to see the rest of the layout to answer properly. Do you need to
illuminate the area how far in front of those cabinets. If not you could probably go
about 24" from the wall. At the risk of being long winded I never see things as cut
and dry so please forgive me. When I look at a situation to illuminate I see it as the
whole picture and want we want to achieve.
For instance in the case of these cabinets I would ask you a couple of things. Do you
want the light to show this piece off? Or do you want just good general lighting for
this area of the room? Is it more important that the outside be well lit or do you want
to be able to see into the cabinets well when you open the doors? All these factors
help determine the best way to light an object.
Hope I didn't complicate things. I just want you be happy when your done. Let me
know what you feel you want to accomplish with this light.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ltngbolt, Finished kitchen will be 14.5' by 28.5'. The far short wall faces East and will be an
eating area with windows and a back door space to be used for dogs' things.
This is the only exterior wall of the kitchen.
South facing long wall will be a 18' run of base and wall cabinets. The range, sink and
dishwasher are on this wall.
The short West wall will have a wall oven cab with a single oven and microwave above it.
Refrigerator is next with a doorway at right angle to the South wall leading to a hallway.
The North wall has a doorway (4' wide) to family room. The above mentioned wall of
cabinets run along here towards the East wall.
They are strictly for pantry food and seasonal/party storage. Composed of three 90" tall by
36" wide and 12" deep units topped by 30" tall obscure glass fonted units.
The ceiling height will start at 8' high on the South wall and be aproximately 13.5' at the North
wall.
A 30" by 46" skylight is planned with florescent tube lighting built into the well to satisfy our
"left coast" requirements.
There will be an island for (storage and baking only..no sink) beneath the skylite centered in
"working area" of kitchen. Island will measure 7.5-8' long by 3' wide give or take.
Oh yeah, the skylite faces South and will have a shade to be used when needed.
Hope this gives you the info you need. Thanks again.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips addendum
Whoops. I became so long-winded I forgot to answer the basic question about the use of the
lighting in front of these cabinets. I just want to see into them. Nothing to show off or
highlight. My kitchen is all about function for ME not form.
The thought originally arose when you mentioned to an above poster that you would like to
see the area in front of her fridge cabinet have a can. I was just wondering how far out.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
In our 12' by 16' kitchen we are using halogen line volt cans around the perimeter. From what
I have read here we have enough and have them spaced properly. We have no upper
cabinets but we do have two open shelves on either side of the stove. Under these will be
kichler xenon undercabinet lighting. Today I went searching for pendants to go over our 2' x7'
island. The ones I liked were incandescant and took a 60 watt maximum bulb. I planned on
getting two since the ceramic fixture was a bit bigger than your average halogen pendant. My
question is like Mary. Is it ok to mix these different types of lights? Would I have been better
off ordering incandescant recessed lighting? In general what do most people prefer? (we
haven't installed the lights yet so I guess we could exchange them) While I am still in the
decision making process, would I be better off getting halogen pendants in order to "match"
the light in the cans if I do end up keeping them?
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Danimal, Thank you and I respect your opinion as well. Thats the wonderful
challenge of lighting and why I so emphasize that the homeowners needs are first
and foremost. My job in that comes in using my experience to help them achieve
that.
drae, I think either would be fine. I think the problem usually arises when you have a
central fluorescent and then start mixing in other types of light. BTW I like those
Kichler UC fixtures, good quality feel to them. Remember if you use a halogen
pendant, they are high glare and very hot, something to consider.
wildchild, Yes about 30" off the wallwould work well. From your description sounds
like some of your cabinets have 2 or 3 feet above them. Have you considered doing
any uplighting on top?
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RE: drae
drae - halogen is a type of incandescent, but I won't split hairs. Any fixture you buy that will
take a line voltage halogen lamp, or a PAR lamp, will also take a line voltage incandescent
lamp. Now, the downlight that you bought was probably designed to work best with either a
PAR or an "R" or "BR" type of lamp, but any medium based lamp will fit. So you shouldn't
have to return the cans.
What most people like in terms of pendants these days tends to be low voltage halogen using
MR16 bulbs. It is also very popular to see "monorail" lighting in lieu of individual pendants
over islands and in other areas previously suited by multiple pendants. Take a look at
www.techlighting.com , they have some pretty neat stuff.
The answer to "can you mix different types of light" is yes, and in your case the kinds of light
are so similar that you shouldn't have any worries.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt - Hi! The working area of my kitchen is approx 13x15 and my electrician setup up
the cans in 2 L shapes. Each L run to be on its own switch/dimmer. Is this common or
completely wacky? I didn't give it much thought and I honestly don't know if/when I'd use
one L over the other and will probably just flick them all on at the same time (there's 10
cans). We no longer have that electrician for other reasons and my GC's guy has taken over.
But I was just curious if this is something you've seen before.
btw: I'm on LI too, in fact my father owned a Locksmith shop for 30+ years out here.
Perhaps your paths have crossed. Your name off your website was very familar.
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ltngbolt,
I have sort of a similar situation as Hunzi, in that we want no cans. Although my ceilings are
only 8.5'. I don't have any pictures of the current state of our kitchen, but have a layout of
where the ceiling light boxes are, and a perspective drawing from the cabinet company that
built our cabinets. We were also thinking of schoolhouse style pendants, but not sure how it
would work. We have a light over our prep sink, two lights flanking the cooktop on the
island, and two lights shining into our glass front cabinets. Right now they are all plain
porcelain bases until we decide on style of lighting, and the light levels are ok. I can see
everything in the main sink, it just seems a little dim in the lower left corner, near the desk. We
will have undercounter lights under the two upper cabinets, and another one above the desk.
The current thinking on the lights is: flush mounts on the two lights in front of the upper
cabinets, school house pendants flanking the cooktop, and a simple pendant over the prep
sink. Does that sound like it might work out ok? Comments/concerns?
Thanks
Gina,
Hi neighbor :) Yes that is normal and I would encourage it. Myself I try not to have
more than 6 cans on one switch. I bet you'll find sometimes you will come into the
room and don't need all the lights. If possible I try to get a small section on a switch,
like 2 lights over an island for instance. Then when someone comes into the kitchen
for a midnight snack, they don't need sunglasses.
abm760,
I think with fixtures in the placement you have will work. I do have one concern, the
main sink. Both your lights are behind the user which can cause a shadow problem.
A small light over the sink on a switch nearby can alleviate that. It could be a
recessed can or a fixture to match the others.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LeeC,
I may be wrong, but I think what he meant by "retrofit fluorescent bulbs in the medium base
kits" is taking a normal light kit for a fan and instead of using incandescent bulbs, installing
compact fluorescents. Medium base BTW is your standard light bulb's base size.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ltngbolt, I was concerned about that too, once we had the ceiling done and going back
would be a pain. There is a bit of a shadow, but it hasn't been bad, with the simple fixtures I
have up now. The front of the sink is a little darker than the back, but not bad enough to go
through the hassle of putting holes in the ceiling to pull the wire. I could probably put it on the
same circuit with everything else without creating additional holes, though. All the boxes in
that ceiling are old work boxes on one kind or another, so I could pull one down, drill over
into the joist bay, and pull from the hole for the new light. That is, if I do add one in the future.
Thanks for the feedback.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt, thanks for all the time you are putting in to answer everyone's questions. Here are
mine.
I have a vaulted ceiling in my new kitchen. The electrician said there were 2 options for the
Halo cans - either to put in regular cans and then use an eyeball trim(expensive) to direct the
light straight down or to use specialized vaulted ceiling cans (the H47 series, I think) and use
normal(310) and cheaper trim. He said that the second option would be far more cost
effective and that's how we proceeded. But now that I'm looking around for trims, I find out
that the specialised cans need a special trim(478 series) and they cost about $25 each. The
electrician is still insisting that we can use the 310 trims that cost about $12 each. He said that
they would fit almost flush.
What do you think?
Second question - what is the difference between a wall wash trim and an eyeball trim? Can
one be used in the place of another?
Last one - Undercabinet fluorescents - can I use these for a desk area? ie will they provide
enough light to read by on a regular basis? Or should I go with halogens? Also, could you
recommend a good brand/model for the uc fluorescents(we've got to have them, CA code) at
a good price.
Thank you so much!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt - thank you for the reassurance! I appreciate it :)
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Great discussion, everyone!
Any thoughts on pendants (or other fixtures) where, instead of low-voltage bi-pin halogens,
LV bi-pin Xenons are substituted (see below for bulb example). We tentatively have 5
pendants planned for a nearly 11 ft long 42" eating counter (18" wide under an 8' ceiling) and
are wondering whether the reduced lumen output will light the space adequately. Otherwise, it
seems attractive for the lower heat output.
Also, part of the discussion above got me rethinking all the cans we had planned for counter
illumination (we will have no upper cabinets), and that perhaps ceiling-mount fixtures (that
take advantage of the reflective properties of the ceiling) are worth considering. Any thoughts
on that?
Thanks!
- J.
Here is a link that might be useful: Bi-pin Xenon lamps
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
biti,
A wall washer is a trim kit that essentially directs the light out of a recessed can at an angle so
that it sheets a vertical surface with light. You can see a couple in this picture....
http://www.acuitybrandslighting.com/Library/Brands/LL/Downlighting/Commercial%20Optica
l%
An eyeball is designed to be used as an accent light, or to provide flexibility in directing spots
of light, and is not intended for the same use.
The halogens you mention would go great under a desk cabinet if you prefer your books to
be on fire as you read. :) Otherwise, this is a perfect application for fluorescent - make sure
you choose a quality fixture! Most folk with intense dislike of fluorescent lighting simply
haven't seen quality, and I'd hate for them to find another convert in you!
CA does require that the general source of lighting in a resi kitchen be a high efficacy source,
ie fluorescent. In Sacramento - and I like to think that this is partially due to many discussions
I've had with our plan check department - undercabinet alone is not sufficient. Hopefully, this
is an indication of things to come in the rest of the state, so check with your building
department to make sure that your lighting design will be up to code.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
led
JohnFH
Try something really different. Find a retrofit LED in an MR16 housing! I found one on sale at
ebay of all places - I assure you I am not trying to sell them.....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2794104595&category=2020
The light is good. They are typically found in an assortment of colors, and even made with a
chip that allows the bulb to constantly change to all colors of the rainbow. But, unless you are
throwing some very funky parties, you would probably want to stick with white, and the color
of the white LEDs can be very good, the quality of halogen light.
The energy usage is very good. about 2 watts? if memory serves. Even if you left them on all
of the time, the payback period would be relatively short, due also to outstanding lamp life
(100,000 hours).
I am planning on picking up a few for my home for a test drive. I will have to let everyone
know how they work out....
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
biti2004,
Okay, I don't want to disagree with your electrician but the 310 trim is not a listed
trim by Halo for that can. That's not to say it won't work, just stating the facts. The
trims for the h47 sloped ceiling cans are a little pricey. You can use a normal 78
eyeball, but that would defeat the whole purpose of putting in the sloped ceiling cans
in the first place. The reason the 310 is not listed is it is made for a straight can so it
goes up the same distance all around inside. A trim designed for a sloped can is
made at an angle so that the light can de dispersed evenly leaving the fixture.
As for fluorescent UC lights and reading, I really have to say it is a matter of choice.
I would not advise halogens either in that case. If you like fluorescent light they
would be the most cost effective. If your looking for incandescent type light perhaps
a low voltage linear system would suit you better. But it will be more expensive.
Danimal answered the wall wash question so I won't repeat it. Hope this helps. If you
need to know what trims are listed for that can here they are:
498P or W
496P or W
417P or W
78 any finish
1417P or W
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
lighting
JohnFH,
Pertaining to the xenon compared to halogens, would need to know wattage volts of each to
compare. With 5 fixtures over that area sounds like you would be fine either way.
Concerning recessed cans, I have a different view than Danimal, which I am sure is already
evident. In cases where a certain look is to be achieved such as a very traditional setting like
we talked about earlier with tin ceilings Ceiling lights can be a great asset. That said, when
recessed cans fit the decor I think they are superior to anything else, giving you the best light
exactly where you need it. Using overhead lights in a kitchen will no doubt leave you making
shadows because at counters, sinks, cabinets and appliances you will be standing between
the light source and the subject.
Lighting is a subjective topic and we all have different ways of looking at things. Kitchens are
rooms that require the most thought when it comes to lighting. I will be the first to admit, when
it comes to kitchens I am not real strong about being energy efficient. I tend to strive for a
kitchen lighting plan that can accomodate the many different demands we put on it. Today we
use our kitchens not just to cook a meal. When we have a family and children we tend to live
in that room. Doing homework, paying bills, preparing meals, eating and entertaining.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Everyone mind humoring me in a little discussion of track lighting?
I'm building a 1-1/2 story, timberframe home. The living and dining areas will be open to the
roof peak with sheetrock between the beams. The kitchen (open to LR & DR) will have a
T&G pine ceiling at 8 ft, again with the beams exposed.
These beams are substantial so I'm assuming that light from cans or a ceiling mounted
flourescent fixture would be awfully broken up/shadowy because of them.
It seams that for areas in timberframe homes, track lighting is the obvious choice and the most
common. If that's the case, what do I need to know about different types of tracks and, in
particular, how does one use them in high ceiling areas so that they cast sufficient light without
shining in your eyes?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BernerFolk,
Track lighting in the situation you describe is common as you say. One factor about
track lighting is it is generally for directional and accent lighting and not necessarily
the best choice for general lighting. Of course in some cases, such as the one you
describe, high ceilings and timber beams, it may be the only viable solution. The
track system of tracks and heads is basically adjustable lampholders. There are a
multitude of different styles to choose from but the bulb is what you need to be
concerned with.
If the ceilings are very high you may want to think about par halogen bulbs. Low
voltage MR16 bulbs can give pretty intense light over distance if you need to have
concentrated light from a distance. To deal with the problem of glare in your eyes it's
all a matter of placement. One of the beautiful things about track lighting is you can
light an area from another area you can place the fixtures in such a way to avoid
looking right at them.
Of course there will always be a place in the room that you will be able to look into
the light, you can avoid the most common traffic paths from having that problem.
Lighting the left side of the room from the right side and the right from the left is an
example. If you gave me a drawing I could show you some examples of layout ideas.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltng -- Earlier in the thread you talked about incandescent bulbs throwing a yellowish light. I
have cans in my kitchen with butter-colored cabinets and sunny yellow walls. I was thinking
yesterday that it's a bit too yellow in there. So do you recommend switching out to halogen
bulbs in the cans to get a whiter light? Or could i do to the special white daylight "verilux" type
bulb? Do those work in the ceiling cans?
Also, must I use floodlight type bulbs in the cans or will regular bulbs do?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt:
RE. Xenon vs. halogen bi-pins, a typical bi-pin halogen (JC-20, 12v/20W) puts out 350
lumens, while a similar Xenon (BP-20-12V-CL) also 12v/20W, puts out 192 lumens. The
comparison between 12v/50W in halogen and Xenon is 950/750 lumens respectively.
- J.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt, I have this dream of being able to walk up to my island and turning on the
mini-pendants by touching a metal rail running under the perimeter of the counter. I'd love to
be able to turn the lights on and off from anywhere without having to walk around the island.
(I'm always scheming...) I also love the bright, dimmer, dimmest aspect of touch lights. Is this
a totally impractical idea??? (I just can't figure out why it would be...) Is there a way to do
this that would make it a good idea???
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
We now have fluorescent light in a dropped 7 foot ceiling over one half of the kitchen with
some canned lights for accent. I would like to remove the fluorescent and replace it with more
cans to update the look. My husband is afraid we will loose the ability to make the room
really bright whenever we need to. Opinion please. Should it stay or go?
Thank you very much for your help.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
JohnFH, Danimal, ltngbolt - OMG! Would those xenon bipins work in my tech lighting
pendants?!! I have the "meteor" pendants, and the dimmest bulb I could find that would fit
them is a JC Type Bi-Pin base: JC35/35 Watt. The 20 watt bi-pins have pins that are too
close together to fit in the lights. I would *love* to get 20W or even 15W.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
fatlester,
There are several different types of bulbs you can use to help that situation.
Halogen as you said, will give you a whiter light so that is one option. A good quality
fluorescent flood will also accomplish this as well. GE makes a series of bulbs called
Reveal. I honestly have not used them yet but I intend to try them. They are
supposed to give a full spectrum true color light. A good way to try a bulb and see
it's effect on the subject matter is to get one of those clip on lamp holders. I'm sure
you have seen them, they have a metal reflector cone with a switch on the socket, a
short cord and a clamp. They are very cheap. By placing a bulb you want to try in it
and shining it on the subject you can get a good idea of what to expect.
JohnFH, I would go with the xenon bulbs if it were me.
Samedis,
When you say fluorescents in a drop ceiling do you mean lay in fixtures or fixtures
above the ceiling with plexi sheets in place of tiles? How large an area is this and
how many fluorescents do you have now?
Claire,
Not a bad idea, I just don't know of anyone that makes a touch metal bar. On the
other hand the technology is out there for it and there may be a product that I am
just not aware of.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
bi-pins
Posted by: ltngbolt (My Page) on Sat, Mar 20, 04 at 10:52
weed30,
Sorry, I missed that one. Xenon bulb replacements are made for most of these bulbs.
You need to find out the base size. For instance G-4 is a size. Then you should be
able to find a bulb in a lesser wattage.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you. Somehow I think I remember G6. I will just take the current bulb to the lighting
store so they can match it up.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltgnbolt, Do you think there'd be a way to, uh, retrofit the available technology to make it
work? I always seem to have these ideas before the actual product is available!!! I need an
inventive mind to help me figure this out... Anyone?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltng-- a clarification as I'm confused: You're saying that I can use the Reveal florescent flood
lamps in regular ol ceiling cans that normally take incandescent floods? And use the same
dimming system? (decora with slow turnoff).
I do have a clip on reflector.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
fatlester,
Yes the reveal light bulbs are not fluorescent. They are specially made incandescent.
Like I said I don't know too much about them so you will have to do a little
homework. You can use compact fluorescent floods in your cans in place of the
incandescent bulbs and they do make dimmable ones but they are more expensive.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Here's a link to the info on the Reveal bulbs in case anyone else is interested. They
look like just what I need as a balance to all the buttery colors in my house and
especially in the kitchen. According to the website, the bulbs are made with a special
element that filters out the yellow. They are available at Target and K-Mart and
certainly worth a try!
Thanks for the lead, ltng -- very helpful. I'll let you know how they work.
Here is a link that might be useful: GE Reveal bulbs
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt: if you are still reading this thread I need some help. Our house was built in 1924 and
as I get older I am finding the lighting in most rooms is insufficient for me.
For example, in our bedroom we have one overhead light and two lamps on either side of the
bed. With all the lights on, I still find it dim in there. What are my options?? Ideally I would
like to add maybe recessed lights in each corner but not sure of the cost of all that. We have
a solidly built house with plaster everywhere. I don't like the looks of track lighting and
switching on 4 lamps every time I enter or exit the room seems too much work for me.
Our living room has no overheadlight, just two lamps and a fireplace. I need more light here.
We have very mature trees so our area is pretty shady and there is a screened porch off the
living room with two french doors leading to the screened porch, and one other window but
on a cloudy day it is dark in here in the daytime. Definitely dark at night. It definitely is cozy
and perfect for company but you could not do homework in this room.
These are two examples of the light situation in our home but overall it is underlit for me.
What do you recommend? Any wireless lighting options out there so I don't have to make a
bunch of holes in the plaster? Is there some new technology with lightbulbs that I could take
advantage of? My husband does not have this problem, just me, so he ia mainly unmotivated
to help out here.
Thank you for your advice.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
susanf242,
I understand your dilemma. Unfortunately plaster ceilings and walls can become a
real mess when trying to update the electric. If there is access above in the way of
an attic, it can be kept to a minimum. For somebody willing to take his time, and
providing the integrity of the plaster is good, you can do a recessed lighting job with
minimal damage.
As far as wireless the answer is no and yes. With some of the smart lighting systems
out today you can avoid running switch legs but you still need power at the fixtures.
The switches can be in the form of remotes.
To keep the damage to a minimum, center ceiling fixtures are one option. Another
option is wall sconces. By placing them strategically above receptacles to get a
power source you can use smart products to control them. Doing it this way it may be
possible to avoid damage altogether.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt:
I have a relatively simple question (I hope). Currently we have incandescent recessed can
lights in the ceiling. We are going to have all (opaque) glass cabinet uppers (Aviskt doors
from Ikea) and we are removing the soffits so they will be the taller doors. We are thinking of
using GE Premium florescent under cab lighting, but don't know what to use for the inside
cabinet lighting. I understand the light will very likely not reach the bottom shelf of the
cabinets. I'm a little wary of halogens since they seem to get so hot -
Oh I almost forgot, we are going to have a 2' x 4' flared skylight in the center (recessed cans
will go around the skylight). I've attached a copy of our plan -
Anyway, what's the best light to use in cabinets? And will it look strange to have the
combination of incandescent, florescent and whatever we end up with inside the cabinets?
TIA you are really wonderful!
This thread is continued from here
mbarnes4104,
As for mixing the fluorescent undercabinet lights with what you choose to use inside
the glass door cabinets it is not a problem. I am not sure what you meant by the light
won't reach the bottom shelf? If you use glass shelves you should get light top to
bottom. If you are not going to use glass shelves you probably would be better
advised not to install lights in the cabinets.
If the top above the cabinets is open and shows that would rule out small high hats in
the cabinets. If however you are able to do that they would be the best light possible.
If not then you need some type of low voltage puck. If you visit you local electrical
supply/lighting store, they should be able to supply you with lights that are
compatible with wood cabinets and xenon instead of halogen.
If you do find later that the fluorescents clash a little with the incandescents, you can
get a warmer bulb to change the look. If you want to go with an alternative to
fluorescent you can see what a xenon bulb fixture here.
Task Lighting
I have replaced every light possible at this point with the Reveal bulbs (as mentioned in
thread I) including the little candle shaped lights in a small bedroom chandelier and they are
day and night different color over regular incandescent bulbs. They give off a true white light
color and are so much more pleasing. I need these for my work as a painter when not able to
utilize natural daylight. The difference in the color of light is drastic and so much more
appealing!
We will use halogen in the ceiling cans in the new kitchen but I would strongly recommend
the Reveal to replace any old incandescent bulbs. You won't believe the difference.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Zolablue, my Mom put these in all her lamps. She has Macular Degeneration and finds she
can see much better with these bulbs than before. Sometimes I like that regular old yellow
candlelight color of an incandescent bulb, but if you really need to see, this is a good way to
go!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Thanks for the input on the reveal light bulbs. I had read up about them but I suspect I will be
using them as well.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
ltngbolt: thank you for your quick response!
I am using glass shelves, but I thought that because my cabinets are longer than standard the
light may not be strong enough to make it all the way down to the bottom. We are planning
on having our cabinets go all the way to the 8' ceiling... I think I was reading about xenon
pucks for inside the cabinets as an alternative to halogen, but I just want something that is a)
not going to get too hot and b) is dimmable.
So what are high hats? Also, any advice on where we should put our recessed can lights in
our plan? When we put the skylight in we have to reinstall our can lighting anyway since they
have to redo the ceiling. We currently have six 6" cans in our kitchen, with a seventh one on a
separate switch over the sink.
Thank you again for being so generous with your advice!!!
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
mbarnes4104,
Your very welcome. High hats are recessed cans. I notice here that recessed lights
have different names around the country, here we use the term high hat frequently. I
have been trying not to use that term but I slipped up that time. If your cabinets go
right to the ceiling you can use a mini high hat like a Halo h-99 for example. There is
one issue though. If it works out that there are ceiling joists in the way where the
lights need to go it won't work.
If you look at WAC lighting's website, they have some mini low voltage display
lights for your situation also. Could you show on plan where the skylight is going?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Ltngbolt:
You are indeed kind for helping us lighting illiterate.
A few questions:
--My contractor has speced 6 Nora brand low voltage can lights for my 10x11 kitchen. Is
this a reputable brand? Also, for my undercab lights, he told me if I wanted Xenon, it would
cost more than the Nora halogen pucks he initailly estimated. Do xenon cost more?
--My contractor advised putting the 6 cans for my 10x11 kitchen about one foot out from
the counter, saying that if they were placed at the counter edge (I told him I'd read that was
proper placement) that the light would shine too much on the face of the cabinets, and center
of kitchen would be dark. (Remember, I'm doing undercabinet lighting, too.) So I'm thinking
of using a 200 watt semi-flush mount light fixture in center of kicthen and putting the cans
over the counter edges anyway. Sound good? Too much lighting? What watt/power (?)
bulbs would you use for six cans in a kitchen of this size that has a general ambiant light?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
ltngbolt:
Thanks the cans in the cabinets might just do the trick - :)
I've attached a link to the plan with where the skylight is going to go - basically , the center of
the skylight lines up with the center of the window, and the skylight is centered within the
kitchen ceiling. We want to flare it as much as possible, but that will be determined by where
the recessed can lights go.
Thanks again for your help! We were just about losing our minds trying to figure out lighting
this weekend...thank goodness for your post!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Zola -- Good to know you like those bulbs. I'm headed to Target to get some tomorrow
night. Most of my cans and switches are in but I don't like the lightbulbs the electrician has
been using.
How are you doing? What stage are you at now?
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Randee,
Okay, there is a few things here. Your contractor is probably going to hate me. If
you are getting Nora lighting, make sure you are paying Nora prices. This is one of
the cheapest brands cost wise. I can't speak to the quality because we don't use
them here, so they may be fine. I just don't want to see you get ripped off. I presume
he wants to use a fixture that takes an mr16 50 watt low voltage bulb. If that is the
case keep in mind there are different quality bulbs. A good full spectrum mr16 is
about $12.00 while you can get a cheaper mr16 for $7.00. The light they emit is very
different and side by side you would be astounded.
I am going to be upfront and I really don't want to create confusion or any dismay
for you but I have to be honest with my opinions. I don't like using low voltage cans
in a kitchen. The spread is not very good and because the light is rather intense it
creates a more spotty type of light as opposed to a nice even spread which is my
preference. The same goes for puck lights under the cabinet. The only time we use
pucks is when there is a flat bottom cabinet. In that case there is not much choice.
We did a large kitchen a few years back and the decorater insisted on low voltage
mini cans. In order to light it properly, there were 42 recessed lights in the kitchen.
Judging by the size of the kitchen and without a layout I would say 8 small cans
seems more like it. As far as having enough light. With the overhead cans, a center
fixture and UC lights you should be okay even with the low voltage cans.
Remember, this is my opinion, doesn't mean I am always right.
Hope this helps
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
mbarnes4104,
Here is a possible layout for your kitchen with skylight. Hope this helps a little.
Here is a link that might be useful: Kitchen Lighting with Skylight
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
First of all, I have no qualms about telling my contractor exactly what I want, I'm paying him
enough. I just need to know the truth and I love that you're telling me like it is! Thanks!
I don't want a spotty look. It's exactly what I hate about can lights. So to avoid getting the
spotty look, instead of using low voltage, I use... what? I want to be able to tell my
contractor exactly the brand and wattage for the cans that will create a diffused look... And is
he going to tell me that low voltage is more energy efficient? As for the undercabinet lighting,
I don't want it spotty, so so I get xenon strips? Brand you like?
If any of this info is on your website, let me know and I'll cruise your site!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Randee,
You can browse here for ideas and more info BROWSE
Brands can vary. The Nora lights may be fine, maybe someone else here has used
them. My concern was what you were paying. In kitchens I like to go with either 5"
or 6" incandescent cans. Using a floodlight bulb like an R-30 or R-40. These placed
about 4 feet apart give nice even light. As mentioned earlier in this post you can get
a better quality light using a bulb like the GE Reveal. One thing I noticed was that
you are in California. On these boards I have seen people state that you need to use
fluorescents by code in kitchens? If that is so you can get cans designed to use
compact fluorescents.
For the cans there are several brands that are all good and reasonable. Halo, Juno,
Lightolier(expensive), Commercial Electric, and there is a company Elco that are
relatively cheap and a good product as well. In different parts of the country there
are different dominant brands so it's tough for me to make the brand call.
For undercabinet lighting I prefer either low voltage linear lighting which you can
view when your browsing or fluoresents. Xenon bulbs are a good way to go with the
low voltage. Just remember that any good low voltage system is going to be pricey.
If you still have questions, please ask.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am new to this whole forum thing - but already am appreciating it! Next week I will be
closing on my new house...Xenon under-cab pucks were just installed over a black granite
slab countertop, and unfortunately I was shocked at the result. A few threads back
LTNGBOLT wrote "Remember, and this is the case with any lighting on a granite gloss
counter, in any dark solid colors especially. They act like a mirror and you will see the
underside of the cabinet as well as the lighting when you are standing in front of the counter."
LTNGBOLT was absolutely correct - to my utter dismay, the reflected light is blinding and
you can't see the counter for the glare. Any suggestions? I am really very sad at how these
beautiful ($$$) lights look shining down on this spectacular ($$$) counter. Can I do anything
about it now? Have already spent just about my every last penny, so can't afford to tear
anything out and start over.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi sugarlessbob,
Sorry you have this problem. A couple of questions I want to ask you. What is the placement
of the lights, front, middle or back under the cabinets? Are they low voltage and how many
watts? About the only thing you can do, without actually changing what you have, would be
to move the lights to the front edge of the cabinets. That way you will only get that glare when
your standing right near the countertop.
There is some other things you can do but it would involve changing the lights.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am considering the xenon puck lights as well but may do a honed black granite. Would
there still be reflection and glare?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi,
You can correct me if I am wrong, but I think honed granite has a high polish finish.
If that is the case then you will most likely have a similar issue as sugarlessbob. My
suggestion would be to install a type of strip light near the front edge. There is only
so much you can do. It is the nature of polished granite in a dark color to be
reflective. Even with the lights in the front, if you were to have a view down the
length of a run of the counter from one end, you will still see the lights. Sometimes I
have seen an island counter reflecting the lights under the cabinets on the far wall.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Hi ltngbolt, We are currently in the light phase of our remodel and I have learned a bundle
from the website you posted. I'm currently sitting here wondering if the Energy saving flood
lamps I bought for the can lights are NOT what I want. They are Commercial electric R40
flood lamps with 19 watt fluorescent bulbs.(looks like a spiral bulb on inside) Other than they
are NOT dimmable, they have a 8,000 hour avg. life with a warm white light which sounds
great to me. Have you used these bulbs often?
I've heard many times on this forum how we often question our choices....well, add me to the
list.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
I started another thread because I didn't see this one after the first one maxed out. I hate to
repeat what others have asked but I am still not certain the best way to proceed. I will have
highly reflective dark countertops, am I better off using xenon near the front of the cabinet
with a diffuser or flourescents to avoid the glare?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Hi Toni,
I don't have the need to use compact fluorescents often. What I can tell you is the bulbs you
have are supposed to have a good light output and that warm light will have a tone somewhat
to the red side of the spectrum. If you need dimming they do make dimmable type.
I do have a question though. Where are you going to be using these? 19 watts is on the dim
side. Fine for a general light but not bright enough for say a kitchen for instance.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lighting
Hi sgdream,
If you read the previous posts here I can't say this enough. With a reflective counter
there is almost no way to make this problem dissappear. You can however decrease
it. The xenon strip near the front edge is the best way to go. If you are able to have
a piece of wood that comes from the front to partially shield it that is all the better.
Just be careful on that note though. First you don't want to enclose it too much
where it overheats. The other is you don't want to block the light.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Thank you ltngbolt for taking the time to answer my question. I am grateful to have your
insight.
To answer your question ,,I did have plans to use the fluorescent flood lights in the kitchen.
They only have the output of 875 lumens which is greek to me. I was hoping they would be a
cooler lamp as well as energy saving yet have a bright warm color light. ( I want it all don't
I?) At $10.00 a piece I don't want to open them until I'm sure they are fine in a kitchen which
is 12'4 X 17' not including the dining area. Do you think baffles help distribute light better in a
kitchen? I'm learning as I go as I'm the GC and DIYer's wife. (not a lighting expert, as he
thinks I should be) TIA..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Depending on how many lights you have in the room you may be alright with those.
One way to get the maximum light out of a recessed can is to use an alzac trim,
which is a very reflective trim. If you use a baffle go with white. Baffles are made to
absorb some of the light to prevent glare. If you think you need brighter bulbs, go to
about a 25 watt bulb. That will give you light equivalant to about 100 watts of
incandescent light. If you try one of your bulbs in a recessed can to test it, you will
be able to get a good idea of how much light it will put out.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Thanks, ltngbolt. You have been a great help to us all. I think I saw somewhere a xenon light
strip with a difusser over it. I will try to find that and install near the front of the cabinet.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
ltngbolt:
you are so good! Regarding the xenon undercabinet lighting reflecting the cabinet above. Is
there a particular type of xenon undercabinet light you recommend?
My sister has these little bulbs, progressive brand?? I know many go with the strip, Kichler
or others.
We are going with light colored Silestone, and have not installed any undercabinet lights yet
although we are wired for it. Have not purchased anything yet, I am soo glad I caught this
thread. I would never have known.
Thanks for your response.
Susan
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Hi Susan,
For xenon undercabinet lights there are only a few brand I have used. One is Task
lighting, if you look at some links I posted you can read more about them. It is a
good quality product but it is expensive. Another alternative I have used and like is
by Juno. They make a mini track that takes little holders with 5 watt bulbs. It is
called Trac 12. The great thing about it is you can put as few or as many bulbs in as
you need. So if you space them say 3 inches apart and decide you need more light
you can get more and space them 2 inches apart. The only thing is you need to get a
transformer with enough wattage to allow you room to add when you first order.
Now for the other aspect. You have to see how much room you have to play with.
You certainly don't want any lights coming down lower than the light rail. The juno
comes down about 1" maybe a tad more while the Task lighting product is 7/8".
As far as progressive lighting I am not familiar with any linear lighting but if you
have any pictures I would like to see what they have. The only undercabinet lighting
I know of from them is independent undercabinet fixtures. Kichler also makes to the
best of my knowledge only independent fixtures, but I have used them and it is a
good product.
One other point while on the subject. I was on the phone with a cabinet installer that
we work with and we were discussing a problem with all undercabinet lighting
tonight. Unfortunately none of these lights is wireless and the nature of undercabinet
lights is they need a wire which comes from the wall. Since we want these linear
systems in the front the wire shows if you are say sitting at a table across the room
or in the case of reflection we spoke about here you can actually see the wire when
looking down at countertop. We think we have a solution but it is kind of difficult to
explain it here. The first time we try it I will post some pictures if it works. Just
something to think about when planning the lights out for now.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
I have xenon pucks near the front edge of my frameless cabinets. I countersunk the pucks in
a 5/8" deep bore in the bottom of the cabinet and then ran a hole through the bottom of the
cabinet to it from the rear for the wiring. I connected up the wiring to a transformer in the
basement and ran a touchpad dimmer line up to the cabinets. The recessed lights only have
about a 1/8" rim showing and all the wiring is concealed. I put a 3/4" single bead molding
across the bottom edge of the cabinets to finish them off nicely and hide the last bit of the
lighting and plugmold (which I also recessed into the cabinet bottom the same way). Only
rarely do you see the lights at all, and even then they do not look bad at all. :-)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Ltngbolt:
On the undercabinet lighting, what do you mean by independent? That they have their own
transformer? I'd heard that the Kichlers were good/easy to install because they have thier
own built-in transformer so that the electrician doesn't have to install one someplace else. Will
this save money (or will the $52 a pop compensate for this).
Groschuni: Do you have any pictures your can share with us?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Great insights and comments--thank goodness I found this forum, as we're on to the lighting
phase of the kitchen reno!
I was hoping you could provide a few quick comments on appropriate lighting for my own
kitchen reno. Here's the deal: I have a narrow and long kitchen (8' x 18') and was thinking of
going with two rows of four 5" cans, but now I think 8 cans in that space might be too bright.
An alternative is to go with a strip right down the middle of the kitchen (maybe a can every
3.5'). I'm planning on UC lighting as well and will go xenon strips as you suggest.
Thanks much!
EG
PS. Kitchen ceiling is 9.5' high, blue safari Silestone counters, red birch cabs, and cream/blue
cork floor.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Randee,
By independent I meant self contained as you explained. Kichler is a good product
and I found them very installer friendly. Also no call backs and that's real important
to me. As far as the cost factor I can tell you this. After much analyzing I came up
with a set cost that I can use and it almost doesn't matter what the light type is. So in
essence it's all about the same cost wise.
Jibba,
First thing is I hope we can see finished pictures, those color combinations sound
like it will look great. The row of lights down the middle I would probably try to talk
you out of. One thing about recessed lights are they don't throw light out laterally.
The middle of the kitche floor will be lit great but I am guessing you don't prepare
your meals on the floor :) Could you show me or send me a kitchen layout. I'm
wondering if you have cabinets on both sides because that would only leave 4 feet
between them on the floor and 6 feet on the ceiling. One alternative may be smaller
cans like 4" or to stay with 5" and stagger the layout if you follow me. If you don't
understand just shout and I'll make a drawing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
AARGH! My counters were just installed and now its become apparent that the recessed
cans are forward too much because I have a lovely shadow now over the sink :( My original
electrician spaced them out about 24" from the wall but I guess he (nor did I) consider the
countertops which come out 26". Then there's one light in the corner that just smack dab in
the middle of the countertop, I honestly don't know where that should be positioned.
ltngbolt - where should I be moving these lights? 26" out?? And where should the corner
lights go. Right now like I said, they are almost positioned right in the middle of the corner
part of the countertop. It just clears the cabinet fronts in the corner. Also, I don't have a
separate light over the sink. The can was almost centered over the sink so the electrician
thought it should be fine. I took that light bulb out but I'm still getting a shadow into the sink.
So should I be moving that light closer to the wall to make it truly over the sink? I'm trying to
get a pic so you can see what I'm talking about (they are 6" Halo cans) and from a previous
email he said he set them:
*I have them set 2' away from the upper cabinets and 1' off the base cabinets. (To the center
of the lights.)*
So what do I need to do in order to not have shadows? I can't believe I have to change this :(
Thanks for your help!
Gina
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oops
Just re-measured and the counters actually come out 25.5". Thanks!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
In an earlier post a 4 to 5ft. span was recommended for spacing 5" cans with R-30 bulbs.
The guy at the lighting store recommended 30" between the cans. That's quite a difference.
Could I get some feedback on this?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello lgtnbolt,
I posted a reply to your reply on another light up your life forum. I now see it's continued
here. Oops!
Regarding the 8' x 8' x 11' bathroom...we already have a ventilation fan. Dh isn't fond of
fan/light combos.
The pedestal and mirror/medicine cabinet are currently slated to be centered along the 8'
wall. Toilet is to the left, one foot from wall and there will be some storage in the right hand
corner.
How do you choose ceiling fixtures with such high ceilings? Thank you, and especially, thank
you to mickeyj2, who alerted me that you replied.
Nancita
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Lgtnbolt:
Well how does it feel to be so popular? A quick question, since I'm not at the "whole room"
lighting-plan stage yet. This is regarding the exhaust system over my electric cooktop: How
much light should I have there and do you know of certain venting systems that give better
light or more light and what type of bulb? KraftMaid sells a system that accepts only a 40W
bulb (too dim), and I'm looking at a Broan that accepts up to 75W with 400 cfm. I'm
assuming incandescent, but I really don't know if these types of bulbs are interchangeable.
BTW, I have saved the first "Light Up Your Life" and I'll save this one too. Any thoughts
about lighting over the cooktop? Thank you!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
cupofkindness,
Your right about 40 watts, way to dim. 75 watts is not bad. Chances are with one bulb
hoods you won't be able to use anything other than a conventional A type
incandescent bulb. Some better hoods have 2, 3 or 4 small floods like an R20 or
R16. These use halogen and are quite bright. If I were going to have a nice
decorative tile back to my stove area this is what I would look for. If it is strictly for
light, something with 2 bulbs is your best bet. Off the top of my head I don't know
which models. Maybe someone can jump in here and help with that.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Hi ltngbolt,
You helped me out regarding can placement early in the first "Light Up Your Life" thread -
Thank You! Now that the lights are going in, (two so far), I'm not sure what bulbs to put in.
We used R30 fluorescents in our basement, but I don't think that's enough light for my
kitchen. Tonight I bought 60w R30 Halogenas - is that a good choice? The other option was
a 65w R30 Duralife bulb, (I'm presuming incandescent). What would you use? There are six
cans in an 11x8 galley kitchen. Thank you once again!
Stacie
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Hi Stacie,
I am not to keen on the fluorescent floods. The 65 watt duralites would probably
work well. The 60 watt halogens will give you the most light IMO. I am guessing by
now you have them in :)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Hi ltngbolt--You have been doing an awesome job here to help everyone with their lighting
questions! I have not been able to keep up with the thread!
On that note, sorry if this ground has been covered before. I have my eye on a lighting fixture
that can be installed as a pendant or mounted on the ceiling. (I have 8 ft ceilings.) The fixture
is a three arm black metal chandolier with candle-type bulbs. It is 13" high.
I always like the charm of these fixtures, but the glare from the bulbs can be annoying. It is
only 60 watts, so I don't expect it to be useful for lighting workspace. And it would not be a
style for the little shades, which I know could help with the glare problem.
If I did buy it, I am not sure where I would put it. Over the sink? Over the small farmhouse
table island? Near the fireplace?
I will have recessed or track lighting for "real" light.
Any thoughts on how I can incorporate this fixture into my kitchen plan?
Thanks for you thoughts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Hi Buglady,
I am sure there is a place you can fit it into the scheme. Over the sink would work if
it is not going to block a window. The island may be your best bet. Any pendant
hanging over an island helps define it as a seperate entity in the room. As for near
the fireplace, I would have to see a picture to visualize it.
On a note about the glare. You can help diminish that a bit with a dimmer obviously
but there are also some cool bulbs I think they are called spunglo. They have a wax
coated like string covering the bulb and take the edge off the glare factor. I may be
wrong about the name. I have to check.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
I know the kind of bulbs you are talking about! I have seen them somewhere. Can't
remember where though. That would be perfect!
I agree. My favorite idea was over the island. I was just worried because it will just be for
decoration, not for really lighting up the workspace.
As a follow up question, if I center the fixture over the 43" X 23" island, how close can I go
with recessed lights? Or would track lights be better because you can point them toward the
island from farther away? I want to be sure there is good lighting for the island, but not have
the fixtures all massed together in a clump, iykwim.
Thanks again.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
We're laying out the recessed can lights for our kitchen remodel and are finding out that some
need to go quite close to the ceiling joists. I know that the insulation needs to be 3" away, but
am not sure if they need to be a certain distance from the ceiling joists. Can anyone here help
me with this question. We'll be using halogen PAR 30 bulbs.
Thanks in advance.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Buglady,
I'm not a big fan of track lighting in a kitchen, but if you like it you should certainly
feel comfortable using it. If you go with recessed cans, going about 20" away both
sides long ways, the 43" direction. Maybe using 5" cans you should be fine for light
and since they are recessed they take nothing away from the hanging fixture.
Cheryll 1,
They can be right up angainst the ceiling joists if need be, not a problem. The reason
the insulation is not so much for the heat from the can but because it restricts air
flow and will cause the cans to overheat. So as long as you keep the insulation clear
of the fixtures, the joists are no problem. Your local building codes though may
require you to use IC air tight cans if there is an attic above. In that case the
insulation can stay and you end up with a situation where your not getting heat loss
through the fixtures.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Hi Ltngbolt,
You are correct, I installed the Halogen bulbs. I really like them a lot! They are Very bright
and I am very happy. *smile* Thanks again for all your help. Have a great day!
Stacie
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Meggswife,
Glad that worked out well. I'm curious what color your cabinets are. It seems certain colors
work better with halogen, while other colors work well with incandescents.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Ltngbolt,
The cabinets are not in yet. We just got back from picking them up in Seattle yesterday.
However, they are natural (light) birch. We love them. I will post pictures when we are done,
but that's still a couple of weeks away. (The door looks good propped up in the kitchen
though!) *smile*
Have a great day!
Stacie
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Stacie,
Perfect! I don't know in which post I said it but I have noticed that light wood
cabinets it seems incandescent really puts a yellow tone to the wood. For that reason
when people have light cabinets I like to see them go with halogen or now maybe
these reveal light bulbs.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Ltngbolt,
I'm glad I got it right! *laugh* The wood really looks beautiful in that light - it "glows". I can
hardly wait to get the cabinets up!
Stacie
Ltngbolt,
What is the big difference in 12 volt and 120 volt undercounter lights? It seems 120 volt lights
are simpler to install not having to use a transformer.Also when using recessed lights does the
ceiling look dimly lit being as all the light is pointing down?
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Posted by: ltngbolt (My Page) on Tue, Mar 30, 04 at 0:45
I asked for a question and then as it turned out our dog had a seizure and we had to
run off to the animal emergency room. She seems to have snapped out of it and is
okay now
Metro 58
As far as the difference between low voltage and line voltage UC lighting it has
mostly to do with the type of fixture. Fluorescents, there is only one way to go, line
voltage. Puck lights can be either line or low voltage. The problem with line voltage
on these is it is hard to do a neat job and stay within the code. With low voltage I can
put the transformer under the sink or in a basement and all the wiring is hidden. No
wiring in cabinets above.
The good linear type systems are low voltage which allows them to be very slimline.
Personally, I would much rather work with the low voltage types because it is just
less restrictive.
About the question as to recessed lights making the ceiling look dark or not well lit.
It depends on the overall makeup of the room. In a room with a lot of dark colors
that will absorb the light the answer is yes it may. In a room with light colors though,
you get enough reflective light to light everything well, even the ceiling. In a kitchen,
if this is a concern, it can be easily overcome with a pendant or two over an island or
peninsula.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Hi, ltngbolt, thank you for the very informative thread! I hope your dog will be okay. I used
to have one that had seizures, and it was pretty upsetting.
I'm now doing my prelim lighting plan, and I hope you can help me with a few questions:
The working part of my kitchen is about 10x12, with a 30x48" island. The eat-in part adds
another 12x8 feet. Overall, the room is long and somewhat narrow. I'll have the usual
recessed cans in the working "L" of the kitchen, and a hanging fixture of some kind over the
kitchen table. When you're at the kitchen table, you'll be able to look down the length of the
kitchen and see the chimney wall hood over the range, which I'm going to put backsplash tile
around all the way to the ceiling. If I put pendants over the island, these will be almost
directly in line with this view of the hood, and I thought they'd make an already somewhat
crowded area look even busier. For this reason, I'm thinking of just using recessed lights over
the island, with nothing hanging down. The island will be used for prep and buffet serving, no
seating. What do you think? Can recessed lights give adequate light there? And if so, how
many over the island (1 or 2)?
Also, I have a 7-foot long window above my sink, on the long part of the L. Right now, I
have only 1 recessed light centered above my sink, in the soffit above the window. If I put in
two instead , evenly spaced under a valance I'll use to disguise the soffit, then there wouldn't
be one directly above the sink, but to either side. Is that standard and adequate? There
would be one centered above my head as I stand at the sink, outside the countertop.
Also, regarding UC lighting, I was planning for xenon low-voltage lights--but I'm concerned
about the reflection and the hot spots you've mentioned. My granite will be on the light side,
but it will be glossy. Is there a way to minimize the reflection (I don't really want to look at
the granite and see what's under the cabs!)--would dimmers help, or a different kind of
xenon bulb?
You've mentioned both Juno Trac 12 and Task lighting for UC. Are these interchangeable,
or are they each appropriate for different applications?
Thank you again for all the great information!
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
toomuch,
Thanks for the good wishes, sadly she had to be put to sleep. We are all pretty upset
here but it was the best thing for her.
As far as the island goes 2 high hats should give you good coverage. If I can suggest
something. We just did a job where the customer wasn't sure about pendants or
recessed lights over the island. We left wires in the ceiling and they later decided to
go with pendants. You may want to take this approach. Having those pendants over
the island can help define space and with some of the great looking pendants they
have today that hang on a thin wire, they aren't too obstructive. I have done it both
with recessed and pendants many times. Both ways work so it is a matter of
preference for you.
The recessed lights over the sink sounds good. Having one to either side is actually
better than one directly overhead. The light splash criss crosses and you get less of
a shadow. I would definitely go with the 2 lights.
On the UC lights if you keep the lighting near the front edge of the cabinets it will
help cut down on reflective glare. If your granite is light colored this shouldn't be too
much of a problem. There is only so much you can do, so don't make yourself nuts
about it. Keeping them near the front and hiding the wire going to them is usually
enough to keep it from being a problem.
The types I mentioned, Juno trac 12 and Task lighting are both about the same
thing. The main difference is quality, Task being on top and size Task being about
1/2 thinner. One big advantage in my eyes of the Juno is the ability to add or
subtract bulbs.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
I'm sorry to hear about your dog. I didn't want to say so, but we ended up having to do the
same thing.
Thanks so much for that information; very helpful! I'll probably be purchasing the UC lights
myself for the electrician to install, so part of the decision will be a cost one, but since I have
to recess the cab bottoms to receive the lights, I'll probably want to go with the smaller ones.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Maybe someone can explain this ;I was looking at 15W fluorescent tubes and noticed the
natural light ones were 575 lumens,the warm shade ones 875 lumens and the cool white ones
were 1000 lumens.Same power consumption but quite a difference in light output.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
METRO 58,
Bulbs can have the same wattage but far different lumen output. First lets explain
what a lumen is. A lumen is a unit used to measure light. It is based on A lumen is a
measurement of candle light each square foot of a surface at a radius of one foot
from the light source.
The reason different bulbs of the same wattage have different lumen output can be a
number of things. In the case of fluorescents, it is the coating on the inside of the
bulb. The best example I could give you would be a 60 watt incandescent bulb. A
frosted, clear and yellow frosted, all have different lumen outputs even though they
all use the same amount of energy.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
toomuch,
Thanks for the kind words. How much is your cabinet recess going to be?
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
ltngbolt, I think they can make it whatever I want, but if I remember correctly, standard is as
much as 1 1/2". Less would be better, of course, but I wouldn't want the UC lights to show.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
your right cabinet companies make them a set size usually. 1 1/4"- 1 1/2" is about the norm.
Thats enough to hide most lights of any type.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Ltngbolt,
Thanks for all your help, and I'm sorry about your dog.
I am in the process of designing my kitchen, and have a question about the lighting. It will be
14 x 8, the general work area is 10 x 8. Because I'm in a high rise with concrete ceilings, my
options are limited. Currently I have a big ugly flourescent fixture which will be gone ASAP.
A lighting designer suggested putting in another large ceiling fixture. I'm wondering instead
about putting in track lighting down the center of the kitchen, but am not sure if that will look
spotty. One wall is a half wall open to the living/dining room, the other will have no overhead
cabinets, but a few shelves over the sink and work areas. I was planning to put some lights
on the bottom of the shelves as a substitute for under-cabinet lighting, or using pin lights near
the ceiling, but am now concerned about the reflections given that I'll be using dark granite.
Any suggestions on one fixture vs. track lighting? Also, price wise I think the one fixture will
be a lot less expensive...true?
Thanks....
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
susal,
With the situation you have, as you said, your options are limited. Your correct in
assuming that one fixture will be less expensive, unless you go with a very costly
fixture of course.
I see two choices. Go with a nice, and they do make some nice ones, fluorecent
fixture. 4 foot with 4 bulbs. It will far surpass overall good lighting to any
incandescent single fixture you can put there. The other option is as you said, track
lighting. Sounds like a galley kitchen and if that is so track can actually be installed
from a center point out to both sides. In other words you could have a row on each
side of the kitchen legthwise. There are some nice small heads you can get today
that will not be so obtrusive as to take away from your kitchen.
If you need any suggestions for fixtures let me know and I'll be glad to find some for
ideas for you.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
I've tried to read through all the previous responses to make sure that this hasn't been
answered before, but if it has, my apologies. I am looking for an undercabinet fluorescent
fixture to be hardwired in. The only ones I can find are 5" deep(and 1" thick - that part is
good). I think there should be some which are 3" or so deep and I would like to know the
make and model of these. Ltngbolt, do you know of any such fixtures? The bottom of my
cabinets is NOT recessed but we will be getting a light rail. Also, should I be placing these
fixtures to the front or back of the cabinet? Thanks!!
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Have also tried to read thru most previous responses - Parts 1/2. Need help with
over-cooktop lighting & fireproofing. Ltngbolt (or anyone else) - do you have any
suggestions? Am also interested in your answer to biti2004's question above.
Doing a complete kitchen redesign. Using Home Depot Premier cabinets. Planning to use a
Whirpool popup downdraft unit behind our 36" natural gas cooktop. However, don't plan on
ANY overhead ventilation. Our cabinets bump up higher over the cooktop (as if there would
be a micro/or ventilation hood), but there will not be one. Would like to install some GOOD
QUALITY lighting above the cooktop, and perhaps install a sheet of stainless on the bottom
surface of the short cabinets to ease in cleaning, and protect bottom surface from heat/fire.
Has anyone done anything like this? How did you form your stainless sheet (or similar
product) to the bottom of the cabinet?
What type of lighting do you recommend? - Would like to go with some energy-efficient
lights if at all possible. Should I only consider halogen (for light quality, brightness)? Or are
low-voltage or fluorescent OK? Brands? Models? Suggestions? Are there any pre-formed
small-profile hoods, w/out ventilation, and built-in lights available? Any help, suggestions
would be appreciated.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Hi - I'm trying to paste my jpg kitchen layout into a message to ask for lighting advice, but
can't figure out how to do it! No paste option appears on my menu or when I right click. Is it
possible to do this, and if so how? thanks!
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
ltngblt, You are giving us some great info, we all appreciate it!
I looked through both threads, but couldn't seem to find an answer to a question I have. I
apologize if I overlooked it. We will have frameless cabs, with glass doors on some uppers
(haven't decided clear, seeded, etc.). We don't want glass shelves in all cabs if we don't have
to (dust, etc.). So, would it be possible to light inside cabs, each shelf, with lights that won't
get hot? How easy is that to do? We have a great electrician & cabinet builder, but want to
know what we're up against before we do anything.
Thanks for your help to anyone who may reply.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Hi all,
Okay in the order asked.
biti2004,
I don't know of anything that is 3" wide or less in fluorescents, at least nothing of
quality. I have seen some supplied by customers from home stores like that but I
usually suggest they return them because they are of such poor quality. As for the
front or back, when using fluorescents the back works great. They give enough
spread to light the back splash as well as the counter from that location.
KenBradley,
For your hood situation there are several options you have. In regards to sheet
metal I have never seen that done but if I was going to do that I would find a local
heating and ventalation company. They can fabricate sheet metal in any design you
need and it is usually reasonable enough. As for the lights, if you want the most
efficient fluorescents is the way to go. As for the size, as big as you can fit in the
space alotted. For alternatives, since you mentioned halogen, you could go with mini
high hats if you have the space to mount them. 2 or 3 would be good. There is also
another option. Depending on the space you have companies make vent hoods with
no exhaust fan and just lights. This would solve 2 problems with one solution. Look
up fan companies that make hoods like broan, nutone. Look also advantage mobile
home products.
maggie MI,
There are places you can post pictures on the web for free. One place is
snapfish.com Or you can email me the drawing and I will post it here for you. You
can email me by going to my page next to my name.
redredwine,
That's a tough thing to do. Why don't you want glass shelves? Without the glass
shelves the only way to get light on every shelf is with light on every shelf. With
frameless cabinets it's even harder because there is no place to conceal anything.
The only thing I can suggest is Satco makes a very slim tube light encased in a
metal shield that comes in colors like black, white, chrome, brass etc. They are
about 1/2" x 1/2" and come in different lengths, and if you electrician is
adnventurous they can even be cut a little for perfect fits, although it is not
necessary. With those you can place one under each shel near the back.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Ltngbolt:
I thought I had seen this somewhere, but cannot find it. Do you know of any zenon bulbs that
can be used in vent-hoods to replace the halogens? Is this possible? TIA.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Do you know what type of bulbs you have now? A number on them perhaps?
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
I don't know as I was trying to find out in advance of ordering the hood, because I have a
potentially hot kitchen and am trying to cool it down. I will call the company first on this and
then get back to you. Thanks.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
I notice a topic that comes up often here is plugmold. It is a solution when one
doesn't want to see receptacles in the back splash. Plugmold is basically a strip
about 1" x 1 1/2" wide and comes in lengths the most common being 3 feet. It can
usually be cut to fit with most types although not always. The plugmold needs to be
GFCI protected either with a circuit breaker or a GFCI receptacle. Another similar
method to accomplish the same thing is using wiremold individual boxes.
There are a few things to consider if you are planning this. One, which is very
important is these need to be secured properly. If the cabinet bottoms are going to
be on the thin side 1/2" or less or a skin, there is not enough meat to hold a screw in
well. Unlike UC lights which just get touched to turn on and off, plugmold gets
pushed and pulled quite a lot when plugging and unplugging appliances. Another
consideration is when you have appliances plugged in your cords drape down from
the top and go right in front of the backsplash you were trying so hard not to tarnish.
Then there is the convenience factor, bending over and looking up everytime you
want to plug something in.
Part of the reason I think people end up going with plugmold is they are not made
aware of some of the options in colors they can get the receptacles in. weed30 had a
great picture of a tile backsplash in which the receptacles blended so well they were
nearly invisible. Besides the colors that are available, they can actually be made to
match a color of your choice.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
ltnbolt,
You have been so helpful will all my questions, but I need to throw another one out here.
Our kitchen is connected to a family room, so as a part of the remodel, we will also be doing
some minor changes in the FR, which includes installation of lighting. As a part of this, I was
planning to install recessed cans with wall washers in three areas where we need lighting, but
basically want to light up pictures, etc. I didn't want to go with low voltage as I really don't
like those plug in type bulbs, and I didn't want to go with 6 inch cans because they're so big.
That basically leaves me with 4" or 5". I haven't been able to find a manufacturer who makes
the scoop wallwasher trim in 5", so I think I'm left with 4". However, in 4", the Juno's seem
only to take R bulbs and not PAR, which I was hoping for, and I don't know how wide the
beam spread would be. I was guessing they should be placed about 2 to 3 feet from the wall
and three feet apart. I'm guessing that the pictures would be about 3 feet down on the wall.
Any suggestions? I really need help on this one.
Thanks in advance.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Ok, I just spent a while (finally!) reading most of what was posted on this thread (I & II).
And I have a stupid question.
It seems to me that if the can light is located directly above the edge of the counter, that
would create the worst shadows. I mean as you stand at the counter, and lean over it, you'd
be blocking the light wouldn't you?
Plus, if you're standing directly below the can light, your head would feel the heat from the
light. No?
I'm just trying to understand since I know nothing about lighting!
Thanks for answering this as I'm sure the answer is obvious and I'm just being stupid!
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
ltngbolt,
I've come across the names of several brands of undercabinet lighting but don't recall seeing
Alico mentioned. They seem to be significantly less expensive than Kichler (at least in the
store we saw them in). Do you have any knowledge of their products or any opinions you
could share?
Many thanks!
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
A question for you, ltngbolt. This is not kitchen related, but general recessed can related. I
have a little alcove, only 3' x 6' that needs a light. I plan on putting in a recessed light, but the
problem is that this is a small gabled area, so I want it to be airtight, IC contact. It is in an
existing ceiling, so a remodeling can is required. And, the ceiling is only 6' high, so I was
hoping for compact fluorescent. So, needs are: remodel, air tight, insulation contact, CF, and
I was hoping to use a 4" or 5" can due to the small size of the space. Any leads for
manufacturers that could provide all this in one package?
Thanks
Here is a link that might be useful: Pic of alcove
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Hi Cheryll1,
You can also look at halo h99 with a 992 trim but it also only takes r20 bulbs. I don't
think your going to find a wall wash with the type of trim that can take a par bulb,
only an eyeball type. Is there a reason for the par bulb? Your distances are all right.
Lowspark,
There are no stupid questions. As far as the placement it's my opinion, doesn't mean
it is a rule. Here is my thoughts on the matter though. The light comes out of the
recessed light in a cone at about 60 degrees. If you visualize that cone looking from
the side as you move the light away from the cabinet the light angle starts to go
under the cabinet. If the light is very close to the top cabinet the cabinet itself
prevents the light from going under at all, creating a distinctive line or shadow. By
pulling the light out to about a foot from the top cabinet the effect is that some of
that light makes it under the cabinet and onto the counter deeper back. Also at a
foot off it is still withing a range where your not creating a shadow when working on
the countertop. Think about it, when you are working on a counter in a kitchen do
you ever lean so far foward that your head is hitting the cabinet doors.
All this is not to say they can't be 6" off and still not be effective. If you look at my
pages about recessed lighting there are some diagrams that show the angle of light
and intentsity that may help to visualize it. In regards to the heat I can only say in 25
years and doing electric in about 200-300 kitchens a year for the last 10 I have
never had anyone complain about the heat from the bulbs. I also rarely use more
than an 85 watt bulb and maybe that's a factor.
chronos,
I am not familiar with that brand. I did take a look and they look good in the
pictures. I couldn't tell you quality without working with them. I like xenon and think
it's a good choice for UC lighting. If you do use them please let me know how it
works out. I am always looking for different product options.
abm760,
About the closest thing I can come up with is a Halo H274R which is a remodel can
fluorescent and airtight. But it's a normal 6" size. I don't know of any 4"
fluorescents recessed cans that are airtight. That is a small package to fit whats
needed for that type of fixture. If you really need to go with a 4" I would suggest a
low voltage can which of course would not be fluorescent. Providing you have the
height in the ceiling, I think a normal size can like the 6" would look fine in that size
alcove.
Here is a link that might be useful: Cone of Light Diagrams
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
lgtngbolt,
Just read about your dog. So sorry to read of your loss.
When using rope above upper cabinets how far apart should the two ropes be spaced?
Should the pair be placed toward the front, center or rear of the cabinet?
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
ltngbolt:
I looked up the halogen bulbs listed with the vent hood and they are HRC-16+C E27 120V
35 W bulbs. Is there a zenon bulb that could be used instead? TIA.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Could you fit a medium base fluorescent bulb into a 5" can, instead of a standard incadescent
bulb? Such as the Halo EI500RAT, or the Juno IC20R with an airtite trim? I found a CF
PAR30 bulb at Buylighting.com
Thanks
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
ltngbolt -- You give alot of valuable info about kitchen lighting. Do appreciate it!
I'm taking your advice -- Halo H-5ic which is a 5" can with a white baffle. Reveal light bulbs
since I'm going to have light cabs. If you can look at my kitchen layout and tell me where to
place the hi-hats (recess lights).
Task or Juno for the underpart of cabs. Should I place under very cabinet?
But what should I use in the glass cabinets?
While shopping I saw 3" - 4" recess lights should I use this size over the sink area? Or can
you suggest something else?
How many light switches do you think I need?
Sorry, for all these questions. As you can tell it's just mind boggling....
Thanks.......
Here is a link that might be useful: Kitchen Plans
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Someone in "Plugmold and undercabinet lighting" wrote, "Could someone point me to a web
site with an overview of wiring strategies for undercabinet lighting? . . . No one seems to talk
about how their cabinets were wired. . ." No one has answered yet. I also would like this
info. We put a separate outlet inside every cabinet, but it seems like overkill.
Also, we have a dropped 7' ceiling over the "work" part of the kitchen. This dropped ceiling
is 7x8 feet between the upper cabinets, with joists every 2'. Would eight 5" cans (or even 4"
cans), 3 along each countertop side and 2 in the middle, be a good layout? If we put them
along the counter lines, there is too much space in the middle. The refrigerator sticks out at
one corner; should we just position the lights symmetrically anyway? What wattage? We'd
like to try the Reveal lights.
Lastly, for undercabinet lighting, we started getting carried away with Xenon$$ fixtures. But
how about GE Profile - anyone comment?
Thanks to all of you for a great forum.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
wildchild,
Two rope lights you'll want to keep them at least an inch apart and two if you have
the room. They should be near to the front as possible. It's a great look! And thanks
for the kind words.
kayjay,
I can't find anything but it may be out there. If it's what I think it is the bulb is a
short medium based halogen. I can't find a xenon to replace it with. Don't be too
concerned about the heat output. A halogen is only 30% hotter than a xenon.
abm760,
Although I don't think you'll find them listed, I don't see why you couldn't use a
compact fluorescent in those fixtures providing you could find one that would fit in
the fixture, and that shouldn't be a problem.
cruzzinpattis and maro I'll address your questions tomorrow. Long day finishing a
kitchen today and I am so tired my heads about to hit the keyboard.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
I posted in a different forum, before I was "shown the light" and pointed in your direction.
What a well informed and willing person you are, as I have read this entire thread, I have
been very impressed.
We have a 1950 built home in the southwest, just remodeled the kitchen and were planing on
using track lighting because of the ability to light and not get too "western" with the holes in
the ceiling. However, I was admonished today not to use track in a kitchen. The space we
are lighting is 12x8, face of upper to face of upper.
My wife is a cooking "Angel", and is always in the kitchen cooking for friends and family, it is
her passion and I want to do the right thing by her, don't want to have her in a dark area with
odd lighting.
Have we been told the right thing or is it alright to use track? It is a "U" shaped kitchen, light
colored cabinets, multi colored slate floor with "Blue Eyes" granite counter tops.
Thank you for any direction you can give!!
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Before you answer my triple question above :), a note: the joists are not showing, they just
restrict the light placement.
A very important extra question - (how many do I get? I am so appreciative) If I have
undercabinet lighting, is it still important to have the recessed lights at the same line as the
counter edge? Or can I just have recessed lights toward the middle, and have less?
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Ltngbolt,
You really are a gem! Thank you for being so helpful and spending so much time here. We're
in the middle of a whole house renovation, and I know that lighting can "make it or break it",
especially in the kitchen, so I've been hanging on every word of your advice.
We only have one shot to do this right because all of our recessed lights aren't going into
regular drywall that can be re-done and patched. We have an old beach cottage that
originally was a vaulted wooden uninsulated ceiling, paneled with tongue and groove panels
sloping on each side with a big beam down the center at about 12' high at the center peak.
During the renovation, we're putting our wiring behind the vaulted panels and cutting holes
into them where we want recessed lights, and then we're going to put some insulation in and
put the roof on. The house is a single story. We've been told over and over again by our
electrician and our contractor to get it right the first time because we may not be able to put
in lighting later since most of the wiring is being run through the ceiling and won't be
accessible later (as I understand it).
So this is my question - Are there any standard rules for placing recessed lights in vaulted
ceilings? Our electrician is using mostly 6" cans, spaced at about 4'-5' apart in some areas
and further apart in others, and will use an eyeball device to help direct the light straighter
down. I'm worried both about the direction of the light and the strength of it since the
placement of many of the cans throughout the ceiling puts them up high on the vault, towards
the center beam. I know you usually advise putting cans about 5' apart, and 30" off the wall,
but I'm wondering if this rule of thumb applies with a vaulted ceiling, sloping on each side.
We'll be using incandescent instead of halogen (hope this was the right decision, but our
electrician convinced us it was nicer light and is less expensive). He seems good but not
necessarily up on all the latest stuff.
In addition to the recessed lights, which will serve as general lighting throughout our great
room/kitchen area, all of which is within this large vaulted area, we will also use a chandelier
for the dining area, undercabinet lights in the kitchen and 3 LBL pendants over the
penninsula. Also, we're having 2 outlets put in the floor on either side of where the sofa will
be (there's only one logical spot for sofa placement) so that we can use floor lamps. So, it's
not as if the recessed lights will be the only lighting, but we also don't want the cans to be
frustratingly sparse or directed wrong.
One more question - have you ever done undercabinet lights under open shelving, and if so,
do you have any words of advice? We're doing open shelving in most of our kitchen instead
of upper cabinets and we're planning to put xenon or halogen undercabinet lighting under the
bottom shelves. The cabinetmaker will create some type of a lip on the front of the shelves to
hide the lighting, but I hope it will truly be hidden and, more importantly, that a shelf will be
sturdy enough to hold the lighting. I was going to put plugmold up there, too, until I read your
post and have now thought better of it.
I greatly appreciate any help you can offer. By the way, have you ever thought about opening
up an internet electrial consulting/advice website? You'd probably have a thriving business;
there's such pent-up demand for your information and experience, and I feel guilty asking for
such valuable free advice. I just moved to CA from the east coast, and if I was still in your
area, I'd be joining what is I'm sure a long list of your customers!
So sorry to hear about your dog.
All the best,
Carli
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
This may be a long post, I'll try to answer all of your questions so scroll down for your
particular question.
cruzinpattis,
Your link is coming up file not found so I can't see the kitchen layout, maybe you
can try that again. As to your questions. The small 4" recessed lights over the sink
works well. The UC lighting IMO if your doing it you may as well do all the cabinets
and on a switch of it's own if possible. Inside the cabinets either mini high hats or
approved pucks. If I can see those drawings, I'll try to help with the layout and
switching.
maro,
If I could see the actual layout it would help greatly. Using the small recessed cans
you get a lot less of a spread of light. For that reason the further you go into the
middle of the room the less light you are going to have where you need it most, on
the work areas. GE Profile is not a bad fixture at all and fluorescents as I have said
are a very cost effective way of lighting the counters. The other alternative that will
also allow dimming is Kichler's. They cost about $15 more a fixture than
fluorescents. Your question about wiring strategies for all this undercabinet wiring is
a good one. I am working on some information and once I get it together I'll post
something about it. If I could see a layout I will gladly offer more advice in the way
of layout.
mgb4us,
Thank you for the kind words. Track lighting in a kitchen is not my first choice but it
can be done in some cases. First you need to have the room. The tops of the cabinet
doors need to be low enough so they don't interfere with the track heads. So if your
upper cabinets have about a foot of space above them it will work. The track can be
installed parallel to the counters in a U shape like the kitchen and about 3 feet off
the wall. The best type of track and heads would be something low voltage to keep
the size as small as possible. One problem with big track heads is they become a
focal point. Most people after spending thousands on cabinets prefer to have the
kitchen be the focal point not the light fixtures (other than some pendants of course).
On the upside of the track is the fact that heads can be moved, directed and added if
more are needed. So if your decor requires it, track is certainly a feasible
alternative to recessed lighting. As I always tell people, you have to decide what you
really want and then we can make that work. If you had no preference then recessed
lighting would be my choice if it fits the decor.
carli,
Thank you also for the kind words. I am going to take another post later to answer
you since there are a few issues. If there is any chance I can see a layout it would be
helpful. Also how high are the ceilings? and what angle if you know?
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
ltngbolt,
This is really fun, thank you. I think I'll try to send you a layout in your e-mail later today as I
don't know much about links and all. I abandoned the plan for just lighting the middle; thank
you for the advice, it makes sense.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
ltngbolt, now it's finally my turn to ask a question:
The Task line of undercabinet lighting--could you tell me what would determine when you'd
use a Luche light and when you'd use a Lumere? All I can tell is that the Luche creates a
"bright" light, whereas the Lumere creates a "moderately bright" light, or words to that
effect...they both look the same in the pics to me.
Do you have thoughts/experience with both of these lines?
thanks, and apologies in advance if I've missed your commenting on this already--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ps re Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Also, sorry ltngbolt--
The GE linkable "full-spectrum" fluorescents carried at HD that are energy star rated--I
wasn't clear on what you were saying about the term "full-spectrum", other than that it's
misleading, right? But compared to other fluorescents, it would be a more natural, less
traditional 'fluorescent' look, right? Thanks again for any thoughts on this...
Happy Spring Celebration, too :)
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Ltngbolt,
I wish I could post the layout, but I don't know how to do that. Sorry! I realize I was asking
a lot of you to comment without seeing an actual layout. I'll find out what angle and exactly
how high the ceiling is, and will report back to you. Even if you can't offer specific advice on
my project, I'm still learning a lot from your general lighting advice. Thanks again,
Carli
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Carli,
You can email it to me if you like. With the angle and height I can give you some input.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Ltngbolt
Let's see if you can view at this site.
If not, can I also email on to you?
Thanks,
Chris (Long Island)
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
cruzinpattis,
Try emailing it to me. The album won't let me in it says I'm not logged in.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Good Grief! Our cans for the lights went in today. (I learned so much from this forum, even
though I never got my plan to ltngbolt.) Marked exactly where they were going, lined them
up nice and straight. Sawed the holes. Wired everything. They're beautiful, but they're 6"
outside the counter line.
Regardless of my meticulous drawing, and husband's meticulous measuring, a really ridiculous
miscommunication took place.
My mistake was in not putting in a dimension from the wall to the first light, even though the
drawing did show the countertop line. DOUBLE CHECK EVERYTHING.
I think the lights may be spaced close enough (due to joists and other things, three lights are
only 28" apart, and I did use 6" cans) that shadows may not be that bad - ? Also, the colors
are very light. When the current goes on, I'll let you know. . . .
Thanks again,
Maro
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Maro,
The 6" outside the line is fine. Up to 3 feet from the wall works well. You can't
always put the lights exactly where you want them due to the ceiling joists, you can
only do the best you can. It takes considerable measuring and figuring sometimes
just to get a layout that will work within the confines of the ceiling joists. Sounds like
you did fine. Let us know how it turns out.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
ltngbolt!! I need your help. We have a 23' x 10' galley kitchen with 4 doors, a chimney
obstruction, 9 feet of casement windows the tops of which will start about 8" down from an
eyebrow kind of ceiling (like a Dutch colonial). The rest of the ceiling in the kitchen is 8'
(which was originally 9 foot, but someone dropped it down), and above that window the
ceiling drops down to 7 foot.
I don't want to block the beautiful view out those windows, but we need to replace the
flourescent flush ceiling light over the kitchen table. Should we replace it with another "close
to the ceiling fixture", a pendant light, or recessed? Which one would give the best light over
the breakfast nook, be the least obtrusive, and look the best? I figure it could hang down no
more than 24" so as not to obstruct the view out that window at all, keeping in mind that we
have a 100 year old farmhouse type home.
Depending upon what you recommend for over the table, what then should go over the sink.
We will also have a similarly beautiful view and matching casement windows (but only 43
inches wide by about 40 inches high) over the sink.
We will have potlights in the main area of the kitchen.
Thanks very much.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Hi littlebit,
Over the sink I would probably say 1 or 2 small recessed lights since you are using
recessed in the kitchen that should fit in fine. For over the table breakfast nook you
might want to put a ceiling fixture to define the area. Here is a fixture that I can
envision for a house you describe. Link below.
Here is a link that might be useful: Ceiling Light
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
ltngbolt, should I infer something or did you just happen to miss my messages to you on
Sunday? (look up a few messages)
Did I ask something wrong? Or something dumb? I'm sorry if I did...I could really use your
thoughts on the luche vs. lumere...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
elsieCat,
I'm sorry I totally missed your question. Don't be bashful I need a knock on the
head sometimes *smiles*
Light wise there isn't too much difference. The luche is a little brighter only because
it is a fixture and has a little bigger area of reflective metal. The main difference in
the two is with the Lumere you are dealing with modules that are 4" long so you can
custom fit it in all situations while the Luche is fixtures that come in predetermined
sizes. Hope this helps and sorry again about missing your question.
If you have anymore questions I'd be happy to answer
Paul
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Thanks very much ltngbolt. Very nice. I think you hit it on the head. I had been looking at
something like that. I haven't totally ruled out something like an old wharf or cargo light.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Paul:
Before you start "Part III" let me ask you, in terms of kitchen chandliers (or in plain talk, the
big fixtures that hang in the nook over the kitchen table), what looks classic given that it is
more informal setting than say, a Waterford crystal chandlier in the formal dining room.
Trends/fashion in lighting come and go. Remember those swag lights that you could pull
down closer to the table top or push them back up into the ceiling? Seemingly goofy, yet so
practical for sewers, etc. We need a fixture to illuminate a table that will seat ten but I don't
want something that will scream "2004" in a few years. What metal finishes, glass, etc. do
you think stands the test of time? What about ceiling fans? Please forgive me if you've already
addressed this elsewhere in this thread, I haven't read Part II lately as its grown and have
some catching up to do. Thank you for your advice!
mbarnes4104,
As for mixing the fluorescent undercabinet lights with what you choose to use inside
the glass door cabinets it is not a problem. I am not sure what you meant by the light
won't reach the bottom shelf? If you use glass shelves you should get light top to
bottom. If you are not going to use glass shelves you probably would be better
advised not to install lights in the cabinets.
If the top above the cabinets is open and shows that would rule out small high hats in
the cabinets. If however you are able to do that they would be the best light possible.
If not then you need some type of low voltage puck. If you visit you local electrical
supply/lighting store, they should be able to supply you with lights that are
compatible with wood cabinets and xenon instead of halogen.
If you do find later that the fluorescents clash a little with the incandescents, you can
get a warmer bulb to change the look. If you want to go with an alternative to
fluorescent you can see what a xenon bulb fixture here.
Task Lighting
I have replaced every light possible at this point with the Reveal bulbs (as mentioned in
thread I) including the little candle shaped lights in a small bedroom chandelier and they are
day and night different color over regular incandescent bulbs. They give off a true white light
color and are so much more pleasing. I need these for my work as a painter when not able to
utilize natural daylight. The difference in the color of light is drastic and so much more
appealing!
We will use halogen in the ceiling cans in the new kitchen but I would strongly recommend
the Reveal to replace any old incandescent bulbs. You won't believe the difference.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Zolablue, my Mom put these in all her lamps. She has Macular Degeneration and finds she
can see much better with these bulbs than before. Sometimes I like that regular old yellow
candlelight color of an incandescent bulb, but if you really need to see, this is a good way to
go!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Thanks for the input on the reveal light bulbs. I had read up about them but I suspect I will be
using them as well.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
ltngbolt: thank you for your quick response!
I am using glass shelves, but I thought that because my cabinets are longer than standard the
light may not be strong enough to make it all the way down to the bottom. We are planning
on having our cabinets go all the way to the 8' ceiling... I think I was reading about xenon
pucks for inside the cabinets as an alternative to halogen, but I just want something that is a)
not going to get too hot and b) is dimmable.
So what are high hats? Also, any advice on where we should put our recessed can lights in
our plan? When we put the skylight in we have to reinstall our can lighting anyway since they
have to redo the ceiling. We currently have six 6" cans in our kitchen, with a seventh one on a
separate switch over the sink.
Thank you again for being so generous with your advice!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
mbarnes4104,
Your very welcome. High hats are recessed cans. I notice here that recessed lights
have different names around the country, here we use the term high hat frequently. I
have been trying not to use that term but I slipped up that time. If your cabinets go
right to the ceiling you can use a mini high hat like a Halo h-99 for example. There is
one issue though. If it works out that there are ceiling joists in the way where the
lights need to go it won't work.
If you look at WAC lighting's website, they have some mini low voltage display
lights for your situation also. Could you show on plan where the skylight is going?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Ltngbolt:
You are indeed kind for helping us lighting illiterate.
A few questions:
--My contractor has speced 6 Nora brand low voltage can lights for my 10x11 kitchen. Is
this a reputable brand? Also, for my undercab lights, he told me if I wanted Xenon, it would
cost more than the Nora halogen pucks he initailly estimated. Do xenon cost more?
--My contractor advised putting the 6 cans for my 10x11 kitchen about one foot out from
the counter, saying that if they were placed at the counter edge (I told him I'd read that was
proper placement) that the light would shine too much on the face of the cabinets, and center
of kitchen would be dark. (Remember, I'm doing undercabinet lighting, too.) So I'm thinking
of using a 200 watt semi-flush mount light fixture in center of kicthen and putting the cans
over the counter edges anyway. Sound good? Too much lighting? What watt/power (?)
bulbs would you use for six cans in a kitchen of this size that has a general ambiant light?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
ltngbolt:
Thanks the cans in the cabinets might just do the trick - :)
I've attached a link to the plan with where the skylight is going to go - basically , the center of
the skylight lines up with the center of the window, and the skylight is centered within the
kitchen ceiling. We want to flare it as much as possible, but that will be determined by where
the recessed can lights go.
Thanks again for your help! We were just about losing our minds trying to figure out lighting
this weekend...thank goodness for your post!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Zola -- Good to know you like those bulbs. I'm headed to Target to get some tomorrow
night. Most of my cans and switches are in but I don't like the lightbulbs the electrician has
been using.
How are you doing? What stage are you at now?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Randee,
Okay, there is a few things here. Your contractor is probably going to hate me. If
you are getting Nora lighting, make sure you are paying Nora prices. This is one of
the cheapest brands cost wise. I can't speak to the quality because we don't use
them here, so they may be fine. I just don't want to see you get ripped off. I presume
he wants to use a fixture that takes an mr16 50 watt low voltage bulb. If that is the
case keep in mind there are different quality bulbs. A good full spectrum mr16 is
about $12.00 while you can get a cheaper mr16 for $7.00. The light they emit is very
different and side by side you would be astounded.
I am going to be upfront and I really don't want to create confusion or any dismay
for you but I have to be honest with my opinions. I don't like using low voltage cans
in a kitchen. The spread is not very good and because the light is rather intense it
creates a more spotty type of light as opposed to a nice even spread which is my
preference. The same goes for puck lights under the cabinet. The only time we use
pucks is when there is a flat bottom cabinet. In that case there is not much choice.
We did a large kitchen a few years back and the decorater insisted on low voltage
mini cans. In order to light it properly, there were 42 recessed lights in the kitchen.
Judging by the size of the kitchen and without a layout I would say 8 small cans
seems more like it. As far as having enough light. With the overhead cans, a center
fixture and UC lights you should be okay even with the low voltage cans.
Remember, this is my opinion, doesn't mean I am always right.
Hope this helps
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
mbarnes4104,
Here is a possible layout for your kitchen with skylight. Hope this helps a little.
Here is a link that might be useful: Kitchen Lighting with Skylight
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
First of all, I have no qualms about telling my contractor exactly what I want, I'm paying him
enough. I just need to know the truth and I love that you're telling me like it is! Thanks!
I don't want a spotty look. It's exactly what I hate about can lights. So to avoid getting the
spotty look, instead of using low voltage, I use... what? I want to be able to tell my
contractor exactly the brand and wattage for the cans that will create a diffused look... And is
he going to tell me that low voltage is more energy efficient? As for the undercabinet lighting,
I don't want it spotty, so so I get xenon strips? Brand you like?
If any of this info is on your website, let me know and I'll cruise your site!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Randee,
You can browse here for ideas and more info BROWSE
Brands can vary. The Nora lights may be fine, maybe someone else here has used
them. My concern was what you were paying. In kitchens I like to go with either 5"
or 6" incandescent cans. Using a floodlight bulb like an R-30 or R-40. These placed
about 4 feet apart give nice even light. As mentioned earlier in this post you can get
a better quality light using a bulb like the GE Reveal. One thing I noticed was that
you are in California. On these boards I have seen people state that you need to use
fluorescents by code in kitchens? If that is so you can get cans designed to use
compact fluorescents.
For the cans there are several brands that are all good and reasonable. Halo, Juno,
Lightolier(expensive), Commercial Electric, and there is a company Elco that are
relatively cheap and a good product as well. In different parts of the country there
are different dominant brands so it's tough for me to make the brand call.
For undercabinet lighting I prefer either low voltage linear lighting which you can
view when your browsing or fluoresents. Xenon bulbs are a good way to go with the
low voltage. Just remember that any good low voltage system is going to be pricey.
If you still have questions, please ask.
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I am new to this whole forum thing - but already am appreciating it! Next week I will be
closing on my new house...Xenon under-cab pucks were just installed over a black granite
slab countertop, and unfortunately I was shocked at the result. A few threads back
LTNGBOLT wrote "Remember, and this is the case with any lighting on a granite gloss
counter, in any dark solid colors especially. They act like a mirror and you will see the
underside of the cabinet as well as the lighting when you are standing in front of the counter."
LTNGBOLT was absolutely correct - to my utter dismay, the reflected light is blinding and
you can't see the counter for the glare. Any suggestions? I am really very sad at how these
beautiful ($$$) lights look shining down on this spectacular ($$$) counter. Can I do anything
about it now? Have already spent just about my every last penny, so can't afford to tear
anything out and start over.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi sugarlessbob,
Sorry you have this problem. A couple of questions I want to ask you. What is the placement
of the lights, front, middle or back under the cabinets? Are they low voltage and how many
watts? About the only thing you can do, without actually changing what you have, would be
to move the lights to the front edge of the cabinets. That way you will only get that glare when
your standing right near the countertop.
There is some other things you can do but it would involve changing the lights.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am considering the xenon puck lights as well but may do a honed black granite. Would
there still be reflection and glare?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi,
You can correct me if I am wrong, but I think honed granite has a high polish finish.
If that is the case then you will most likely have a similar issue as sugarlessbob. My
suggestion would be to install a type of strip light near the front edge. There is only
so much you can do. It is the nature of polished granite in a dark color to be
reflective. Even with the lights in the front, if you were to have a view down the
length of a run of the counter from one end, you will still see the lights. Sometimes I
have seen an island counter reflecting the lights under the cabinets on the far wall.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Hi ltngbolt, We are currently in the light phase of our remodel and I have learned a bundle
from the website you posted. I'm currently sitting here wondering if the Energy saving flood
lamps I bought for the can lights are NOT what I want. They are Commercial electric R40
flood lamps with 19 watt fluorescent bulbs.(looks like a spiral bulb on inside) Other than they
are NOT dimmable, they have a 8,000 hour avg. life with a warm white light which sounds
great to me. Have you used these bulbs often?
I've heard many times on this forum how we often question our choices....well, add me to the
list.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
I started another thread because I didn't see this one after the first one maxed out. I hate to
repeat what others have asked but I am still not certain the best way to proceed. I will have
highly reflective dark countertops, am I better off using xenon near the front of the cabinet
with a diffuser or flourescents to avoid the glare?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Hi Toni,
I don't have the need to use compact fluorescents often. What I can tell you is the bulbs you
have are supposed to have a good light output and that warm light will have a tone somewhat
to the red side of the spectrum. If you need dimming they do make dimmable type.
I do have a question though. Where are you going to be using these? 19 watts is on the dim
side. Fine for a general light but not bright enough for say a kitchen for instance.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lighting
Hi sgdream,
If you read the previous posts here I can't say this enough. With a reflective counter
there is almost no way to make this problem dissappear. You can however decrease
it. The xenon strip near the front edge is the best way to go. If you are able to have
a piece of wood that comes from the front to partially shield it that is all the better.
Just be careful on that note though. First you don't want to enclose it too much
where it overheats. The other is you don't want to block the light.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Thank you ltngbolt for taking the time to answer my question. I am grateful to have your
insight.
To answer your question ,,I did have plans to use the fluorescent flood lights in the kitchen.
They only have the output of 875 lumens which is greek to me. I was hoping they would be a
cooler lamp as well as energy saving yet have a bright warm color light. ( I want it all don't
I?) At $10.00 a piece I don't want to open them until I'm sure they are fine in a kitchen which
is 12'4 X 17' not including the dining area. Do you think baffles help distribute light better in a
kitchen? I'm learning as I go as I'm the GC and DIYer's wife. (not a lighting expert, as he
thinks I should be) TIA..
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Depending on how many lights you have in the room you may be alright with those.
One way to get the maximum light out of a recessed can is to use an alzac trim,
which is a very reflective trim. If you use a baffle go with white. Baffles are made to
absorb some of the light to prevent glare. If you think you need brighter bulbs, go to
about a 25 watt bulb. That will give you light equivalant to about 100 watts of
incandescent light. If you try one of your bulbs in a recessed can to test it, you will
be able to get a good idea of how much light it will put out.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Thanks, ltngbolt. You have been a great help to us all. I think I saw somewhere a xenon light
strip with a difusser over it. I will try to find that and install near the front of the cabinet.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
ltngbolt:
you are so good! Regarding the xenon undercabinet lighting reflecting the cabinet above. Is
there a particular type of xenon undercabinet light you recommend?
My sister has these little bulbs, progressive brand?? I know many go with the strip, Kichler
or others.
We are going with light colored Silestone, and have not installed any undercabinet lights yet
although we are wired for it. Have not purchased anything yet, I am soo glad I caught this
thread. I would never have known.
Thanks for your response.
Susan
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Hi Susan,
For xenon undercabinet lights there are only a few brand I have used. One is Task
lighting, if you look at some links I posted you can read more about them. It is a
good quality product but it is expensive. Another alternative I have used and like is
by Juno. They make a mini track that takes little holders with 5 watt bulbs. It is
called Trac 12. The great thing about it is you can put as few or as many bulbs in as
you need. So if you space them say 3 inches apart and decide you need more light
you can get more and space them 2 inches apart. The only thing is you need to get a
transformer with enough wattage to allow you room to add when you first order.
Now for the other aspect. You have to see how much room you have to play with.
You certainly don't want any lights coming down lower than the light rail. The juno
comes down about 1" maybe a tad more while the Task lighting product is 7/8".
As far as progressive lighting I am not familiar with any linear lighting but if you
have any pictures I would like to see what they have. The only undercabinet lighting
I know of from them is independent undercabinet fixtures. Kichler also makes to the
best of my knowledge only independent fixtures, but I have used them and it is a
good product.
One other point while on the subject. I was on the phone with a cabinet installer that
we work with and we were discussing a problem with all undercabinet lighting
tonight. Unfortunately none of these lights is wireless and the nature of undercabinet
lights is they need a wire which comes from the wall. Since we want these linear
systems in the front the wire shows if you are say sitting at a table across the room
or in the case of reflection we spoke about here you can actually see the wire when
looking down at countertop. We think we have a solution but it is kind of difficult to
explain it here. The first time we try it I will post some pictures if it works. Just
something to think about when planning the lights out for now.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
I have xenon pucks near the front edge of my frameless cabinets. I countersunk the pucks in
a 5/8" deep bore in the bottom of the cabinet and then ran a hole through the bottom of the
cabinet to it from the rear for the wiring. I connected up the wiring to a transformer in the
basement and ran a touchpad dimmer line up to the cabinets. The recessed lights only have
about a 1/8" rim showing and all the wiring is concealed. I put a 3/4" single bead molding
across the bottom edge of the cabinets to finish them off nicely and hide the last bit of the
lighting and plugmold (which I also recessed into the cabinet bottom the same way). Only
rarely do you see the lights at all, and even then they do not look bad at all. :-)
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Ltngbolt:
On the undercabinet lighting, what do you mean by independent? That they have their own
transformer? I'd heard that the Kichlers were good/easy to install because they have thier
own built-in transformer so that the electrician doesn't have to install one someplace else. Will
this save money (or will the $52 a pop compensate for this).
Groschuni: Do you have any pictures your can share with us?
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Great insights and comments--thank goodness I found this forum, as we're on to the lighting
phase of the kitchen reno!
I was hoping you could provide a few quick comments on appropriate lighting for my own
kitchen reno. Here's the deal: I have a narrow and long kitchen (8' x 18') and was thinking of
going with two rows of four 5" cans, but now I think 8 cans in that space might be too bright.
An alternative is to go with a strip right down the middle of the kitchen (maybe a can every
3.5'). I'm planning on UC lighting as well and will go xenon strips as you suggest.
Thanks much!
EG
PS. Kitchen ceiling is 9.5' high, blue safari Silestone counters, red birch cabs, and cream/blue
cork floor.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Randee,
By independent I meant self contained as you explained. Kichler is a good product
and I found them very installer friendly. Also no call backs and that's real important
to me. As far as the cost factor I can tell you this. After much analyzing I came up
with a set cost that I can use and it almost doesn't matter what the light type is. So in
essence it's all about the same cost wise.
Jibba,
First thing is I hope we can see finished pictures, those color combinations sound
like it will look great. The row of lights down the middle I would probably try to talk
you out of. One thing about recessed lights are they don't throw light out laterally.
The middle of the kitche floor will be lit great but I am guessing you don't prepare
your meals on the floor :) Could you show me or send me a kitchen layout. I'm
wondering if you have cabinets on both sides because that would only leave 4 feet
between them on the floor and 6 feet on the ceiling. One alternative may be smaller
cans like 4" or to stay with 5" and stagger the layout if you follow me. If you don't
understand just shout and I'll make a drawing.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
AARGH! My counters were just installed and now its become apparent that the recessed
cans are forward too much because I have a lovely shadow now over the sink :( My original
electrician spaced them out about 24" from the wall but I guess he (nor did I) consider the
countertops which come out 26". Then there's one light in the corner that just smack dab in
the middle of the countertop, I honestly don't know where that should be positioned.
ltngbolt - where should I be moving these lights? 26" out?? And where should the corner
lights go. Right now like I said, they are almost positioned right in the middle of the corner
part of the countertop. It just clears the cabinet fronts in the corner. Also, I don't have a
separate light over the sink. The can was almost centered over the sink so the electrician
thought it should be fine. I took that light bulb out but I'm still getting a shadow into the sink.
So should I be moving that light closer to the wall to make it truly over the sink? I'm trying to
get a pic so you can see what I'm talking about (they are 6" Halo cans) and from a previous
email he said he set them:
*I have them set 2' away from the upper cabinets and 1' off the base cabinets. (To the center
of the lights.)*
So what do I need to do in order to not have shadows? I can't believe I have to change this :(
Thanks for your help!
Gina
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oops
Just re-measured and the counters actually come out 25.5". Thanks!
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
In an earlier post a 4 to 5ft. span was recommended for spacing 5" cans with R-30 bulbs.
The guy at the lighting store recommended 30" between the cans. That's quite a difference.
Could I get some feedback on this?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello lgtnbolt,
I posted a reply to your reply on another light up your life forum. I now see it's continued
here. Oops!
Regarding the 8' x 8' x 11' bathroom...we already have a ventilation fan. Dh isn't fond of
fan/light combos.
The pedestal and mirror/medicine cabinet are currently slated to be centered along the 8'
wall. Toilet is to the left, one foot from wall and there will be some storage in the right hand
corner.
How do you choose ceiling fixtures with such high ceilings? Thank you, and especially, thank
you to mickeyj2, who alerted me that you replied.
Nancita
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Lgtnbolt:
Well how does it feel to be so popular? A quick question, since I'm not at the "whole room"
lighting-plan stage yet. This is regarding the exhaust system over my electric cooktop: How
much light should I have there and do you know of certain venting systems that give better
light or more light and what type of bulb? KraftMaid sells a system that accepts only a 40W
bulb (too dim), and I'm looking at a Broan that accepts up to 75W with 400 cfm. I'm
assuming incandescent, but I really don't know if these types of bulbs are interchangeable.
BTW, I have saved the first "Light Up Your Life" and I'll save this one too. Any thoughts
about lighting over the cooktop? Thank you!
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
cupofkindness,
Your right about 40 watts, way to dim. 75 watts is not bad. Chances are with one bulb
hoods you won't be able to use anything other than a conventional A type
incandescent bulb. Some better hoods have 2, 3 or 4 small floods like an R20 or
R16. These use halogen and are quite bright. If I were going to have a nice
decorative tile back to my stove area this is what I would look for. If it is strictly for
light, something with 2 bulbs is your best bet. Off the top of my head I don't know
which models. Maybe someone can jump in here and help with that.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Hi ltngbolt,
You helped me out regarding can placement early in the first "Light Up Your Life" thread -
Thank You! Now that the lights are going in, (two so far), I'm not sure what bulbs to put in.
We used R30 fluorescents in our basement, but I don't think that's enough light for my
kitchen. Tonight I bought 60w R30 Halogenas - is that a good choice? The other option was
a 65w R30 Duralife bulb, (I'm presuming incandescent). What would you use? There are six
cans in an 11x8 galley kitchen. Thank you once again!
Stacie
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Hi Stacie,
I am not to keen on the fluorescent floods. The 65 watt duralites would probably
work well. The 60 watt halogens will give you the most light IMO. I am guessing by
now you have them in :)
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Hi ltngbolt--You have been doing an awesome job here to help everyone with their lighting
questions! I have not been able to keep up with the thread!
On that note, sorry if this ground has been covered before. I have my eye on a lighting fixture
that can be installed as a pendant or mounted on the ceiling. (I have 8 ft ceilings.) The fixture
is a three arm black metal chandolier with candle-type bulbs. It is 13" high.
I always like the charm of these fixtures, but the glare from the bulbs can be annoying. It is
only 60 watts, so I don't expect it to be useful for lighting workspace. And it would not be a
style for the little shades, which I know could help with the glare problem.
If I did buy it, I am not sure where I would put it. Over the sink? Over the small farmhouse
table island? Near the fireplace?
I will have recessed or track lighting for "real" light.
Any thoughts on how I can incorporate this fixture into my kitchen plan?
Thanks for you thoughts.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Hi Buglady,
I am sure there is a place you can fit it into the scheme. Over the sink would work if
it is not going to block a window. The island may be your best bet. Any pendant
hanging over an island helps define it as a seperate entity in the room. As for near
the fireplace, I would have to see a picture to visualize it.
On a note about the glare. You can help diminish that a bit with a dimmer obviously
but there are also some cool bulbs I think they are called spunglo. They have a wax
coated like string covering the bulb and take the edge off the glare factor. I may be
wrong about the name. I have to check.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
I know the kind of bulbs you are talking about! I have seen them somewhere. Can't
remember where though. That would be perfect!
I agree. My favorite idea was over the island. I was just worried because it will just be for
decoration, not for really lighting up the workspace.
As a follow up question, if I center the fixture over the 43" X 23" island, how close can I go
with recessed lights? Or would track lights be better because you can point them toward the
island from farther away? I want to be sure there is good lighting for the island, but not have
the fixtures all massed together in a clump, iykwim.
Thanks again.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
We're laying out the recessed can lights for our kitchen remodel and are finding out that some
need to go quite close to the ceiling joists. I know that the insulation needs to be 3" away, but
am not sure if they need to be a certain distance from the ceiling joists. Can anyone here help
me with this question. We'll be using halogen PAR 30 bulbs.
Thanks in advance.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Buglady,
I'm not a big fan of track lighting in a kitchen, but if you like it you should certainly
feel comfortable using it. If you go with recessed cans, going about 20" away both
sides long ways, the 43" direction. Maybe using 5" cans you should be fine for light
and since they are recessed they take nothing away from the hanging fixture.
Cheryll 1,
They can be right up angainst the ceiling joists if need be, not a problem. The reason
the insulation is not so much for the heat from the can but because it restricts air
flow and will cause the cans to overheat. So as long as you keep the insulation clear
of the fixtures, the joists are no problem. Your local building codes though may
require you to use IC air tight cans if there is an attic above. In that case the
insulation can stay and you end up with a situation where your not getting heat loss
through the fixtures.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Hi Ltngbolt,
You are correct, I installed the Halogen bulbs. I really like them a lot! They are Very bright
and I am very happy. *smile* Thanks again for all your help. Have a great day!
Stacie
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Meggswife,
Glad that worked out well. I'm curious what color your cabinets are. It seems certain colors
work better with halogen, while other colors work well with incandescents.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Ltngbolt,
The cabinets are not in yet. We just got back from picking them up in Seattle yesterday.
However, they are natural (light) birch. We love them. I will post pictures when we are done,
but that's still a couple of weeks away. (The door looks good propped up in the kitchen
though!) *smile*
Have a great day!
Stacie
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Stacie,
Perfect! I don't know in which post I said it but I have noticed that light wood
cabinets it seems incandescent really puts a yellow tone to the wood. For that reason
when people have light cabinets I like to see them go with halogen or now maybe
these reveal light bulbs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Ltngbolt,
I'm glad I got it right! *laugh* The wood really looks beautiful in that light - it "glows". I can
hardly wait to get the cabinets up!
Stacie
Ltngbolt,
What is the big difference in 12 volt and 120 volt undercounter lights? It seems 120 volt lights
are simpler to install not having to use a transformer.Also when using recessed lights does the
ceiling look dimly lit being as all the light is pointing down?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Posted by: ltngbolt (My Page) on Tue, Mar 30, 04 at 0:45
I asked for a question and then as it turned out our dog had a seizure and we had to
run off to the animal emergency room. She seems to have snapped out of it and is
okay now
Metro 58
As far as the difference between low voltage and line voltage UC lighting it has
mostly to do with the type of fixture. Fluorescents, there is only one way to go, line
voltage. Puck lights can be either line or low voltage. The problem with line voltage
on these is it is hard to do a neat job and stay within the code. With low voltage I can
put the transformer under the sink or in a basement and all the wiring is hidden. No
wiring in cabinets above.
The good linear type systems are low voltage which allows them to be very slimline.
Personally, I would much rather work with the low voltage types because it is just
less restrictive.
About the question as to recessed lights making the ceiling look dark or not well lit.
It depends on the overall makeup of the room. In a room with a lot of dark colors
that will absorb the light the answer is yes it may. In a room with light colors though,
you get enough reflective light to light everything well, even the ceiling. In a kitchen,
if this is a concern, it can be easily overcome with a pendant or two over an island or
peninsula.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Hi, ltngbolt, thank you for the very informative thread! I hope your dog will be okay. I used
to have one that had seizures, and it was pretty upsetting.
I'm now doing my prelim lighting plan, and I hope you can help me with a few questions:
The working part of my kitchen is about 10x12, with a 30x48" island. The eat-in part adds
another 12x8 feet. Overall, the room is long and somewhat narrow. I'll have the usual
recessed cans in the working "L" of the kitchen, and a hanging fixture of some kind over the
kitchen table. When you're at the kitchen table, you'll be able to look down the length of the
kitchen and see the chimney wall hood over the range, which I'm going to put backsplash tile
around all the way to the ceiling. If I put pendants over the island, these will be almost
directly in line with this view of the hood, and I thought they'd make an already somewhat
crowded area look even busier. For this reason, I'm thinking of just using recessed lights over
the island, with nothing hanging down. The island will be used for prep and buffet serving, no
seating. What do you think? Can recessed lights give adequate light there? And if so, how
many over the island (1 or 2)?
Also, I have a 7-foot long window above my sink, on the long part of the L. Right now, I
have only 1 recessed light centered above my sink, in the soffit above the window. If I put in
two instead , evenly spaced under a valance I'll use to disguise the soffit, then there wouldn't
be one directly above the sink, but to either side. Is that standard and adequate? There
would be one centered above my head as I stand at the sink, outside the countertop.
Also, regarding UC lighting, I was planning for xenon low-voltage lights--but I'm concerned
about the reflection and the hot spots you've mentioned. My granite will be on the light side,
but it will be glossy. Is there a way to minimize the reflection (I don't really want to look at
the granite and see what's under the cabs!)--would dimmers help, or a different kind of
xenon bulb?
You've mentioned both Juno Trac 12 and Task lighting for UC. Are these interchangeable,
or are they each appropriate for different applications?
Thank you again for all the great information!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
toomuch,
Thanks for the good wishes, sadly she had to be put to sleep. We are all pretty upset
here but it was the best thing for her.
As far as the island goes 2 high hats should give you good coverage. If I can suggest
something. We just did a job where the customer wasn't sure about pendants or
recessed lights over the island. We left wires in the ceiling and they later decided to
go with pendants. You may want to take this approach. Having those pendants over
the island can help define space and with some of the great looking pendants they
have today that hang on a thin wire, they aren't too obstructive. I have done it both
with recessed and pendants many times. Both ways work so it is a matter of
preference for you.
The recessed lights over the sink sounds good. Having one to either side is actually
better than one directly overhead. The light splash criss crosses and you get less of
a shadow. I would definitely go with the 2 lights.
On the UC lights if you keep the lighting near the front edge of the cabinets it will
help cut down on reflective glare. If your granite is light colored this shouldn't be too
much of a problem. There is only so much you can do, so don't make yourself nuts
about it. Keeping them near the front and hiding the wire going to them is usually
enough to keep it from being a problem.
The types I mentioned, Juno trac 12 and Task lighting are both about the same
thing. The main difference is quality, Task being on top and size Task being about
1/2 thinner. One big advantage in my eyes of the Juno is the ability to add or
subtract bulbs.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
I'm sorry to hear about your dog. I didn't want to say so, but we ended up having to do the
same thing.
Thanks so much for that information; very helpful! I'll probably be purchasing the UC lights
myself for the electrician to install, so part of the decision will be a cost one, but since I have
to recess the cab bottoms to receive the lights, I'll probably want to go with the smaller ones.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Maybe someone can explain this ;I was looking at 15W fluorescent tubes and noticed the
natural light ones were 575 lumens,the warm shade ones 875 lumens and the cool white ones
were 1000 lumens.Same power consumption but quite a difference in light output.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
METRO 58,
Bulbs can have the same wattage but far different lumen output. First lets explain
what a lumen is. A lumen is a unit used to measure light. It is based on A lumen is a
measurement of candle light each square foot of a surface at a radius of one foot
from the light source.
The reason different bulbs of the same wattage have different lumen output can be a
number of things. In the case of fluorescents, it is the coating on the inside of the
bulb. The best example I could give you would be a 60 watt incandescent bulb. A
frosted, clear and yellow frosted, all have different lumen outputs even though they
all use the same amount of energy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
toomuch,
Thanks for the kind words. How much is your cabinet recess going to be?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
ltngbolt, I think they can make it whatever I want, but if I remember correctly, standard is as
much as 1 1/2". Less would be better, of course, but I wouldn't want the UC lights to show.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
your right cabinet companies make them a set size usually. 1 1/4"- 1 1/2" is about the norm.
Thats enough to hide most lights of any type.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Ltngbolt,
Thanks for all your help, and I'm sorry about your dog.
I am in the process of designing my kitchen, and have a question about the lighting. It will be
14 x 8, the general work area is 10 x 8. Because I'm in a high rise with concrete ceilings, my
options are limited. Currently I have a big ugly flourescent fixture which will be gone ASAP.
A lighting designer suggested putting in another large ceiling fixture. I'm wondering instead
about putting in track lighting down the center of the kitchen, but am not sure if that will look
spotty. One wall is a half wall open to the living/dining room, the other will have no overhead
cabinets, but a few shelves over the sink and work areas. I was planning to put some lights
on the bottom of the shelves as a substitute for under-cabinet lighting, or using pin lights near
the ceiling, but am now concerned about the reflections given that I'll be using dark granite.
Any suggestions on one fixture vs. track lighting? Also, price wise I think the one fixture will
be a lot less expensive...true?
Thanks....
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
susal,
With the situation you have, as you said, your options are limited. Your correct in
assuming that one fixture will be less expensive, unless you go with a very costly
fixture of course.
I see two choices. Go with a nice, and they do make some nice ones, fluorecent
fixture. 4 foot with 4 bulbs. It will far surpass overall good lighting to any
incandescent single fixture you can put there. The other option is as you said, track
lighting. Sounds like a galley kitchen and if that is so track can actually be installed
from a center point out to both sides. In other words you could have a row on each
side of the kitchen legthwise. There are some nice small heads you can get today
that will not be so obtrusive as to take away from your kitchen.
If you need any suggestions for fixtures let me know and I'll be glad to find some for
ideas for you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
I've tried to read through all the previous responses to make sure that this hasn't been
answered before, but if it has, my apologies. I am looking for an undercabinet fluorescent
fixture to be hardwired in. The only ones I can find are 5" deep(and 1" thick - that part is
good). I think there should be some which are 3" or so deep and I would like to know the
make and model of these. Ltngbolt, do you know of any such fixtures? The bottom of my
cabinets is NOT recessed but we will be getting a light rail. Also, should I be placing these
fixtures to the front or back of the cabinet? Thanks!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Have also tried to read thru most previous responses - Parts 1/2. Need help with
over-cooktop lighting & fireproofing. Ltngbolt (or anyone else) - do you have any
suggestions? Am also interested in your answer to biti2004's question above.
Doing a complete kitchen redesign. Using Home Depot Premier cabinets. Planning to use a
Whirpool popup downdraft unit behind our 36" natural gas cooktop. However, don't plan on
ANY overhead ventilation. Our cabinets bump up higher over the cooktop (as if there would
be a micro/or ventilation hood), but there will not be one. Would like to install some GOOD
QUALITY lighting above the cooktop, and perhaps install a sheet of stainless on the bottom
surface of the short cabinets to ease in cleaning, and protect bottom surface from heat/fire.
Has anyone done anything like this? How did you form your stainless sheet (or similar
product) to the bottom of the cabinet?
What type of lighting do you recommend? - Would like to go with some energy-efficient
lights if at all possible. Should I only consider halogen (for light quality, brightness)? Or are
low-voltage or fluorescent OK? Brands? Models? Suggestions? Are there any pre-formed
small-profile hoods, w/out ventilation, and built-in lights available? Any help, suggestions
would be appreciated.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Hi - I'm trying to paste my jpg kitchen layout into a message to ask for lighting advice, but
can't figure out how to do it! No paste option appears on my menu or when I right click. Is it
possible to do this, and if so how? thanks!
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
ltngblt, You are giving us some great info, we all appreciate it!
I looked through both threads, but couldn't seem to find an answer to a question I have. I
apologize if I overlooked it. We will have frameless cabs, with glass doors on some uppers
(haven't decided clear, seeded, etc.). We don't want glass shelves in all cabs if we don't have
to (dust, etc.). So, would it be possible to light inside cabs, each shelf, with lights that won't
get hot? How easy is that to do? We have a great electrician & cabinet builder, but want to
know what we're up against before we do anything.
Thanks for your help to anyone who may reply.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Hi all,
Okay in the order asked.
biti2004,
I don't know of anything that is 3" wide or less in fluorescents, at least nothing of
quality. I have seen some supplied by customers from home stores like that but I
usually suggest they return them because they are of such poor quality. As for the
front or back, when using fluorescents the back works great. They give enough
spread to light the back splash as well as the counter from that location.
KenBradley,
For your hood situation there are several options you have. In regards to sheet
metal I have never seen that done but if I was going to do that I would find a local
heating and ventalation company. They can fabricate sheet metal in any design you
need and it is usually reasonable enough. As for the lights, if you want the most
efficient fluorescents is the way to go. As for the size, as big as you can fit in the
space alotted. For alternatives, since you mentioned halogen, you could go with mini
high hats if you have the space to mount them. 2 or 3 would be good. There is also
another option. Depending on the space you have companies make vent hoods with
no exhaust fan and just lights. This would solve 2 problems with one solution. Look
up fan companies that make hoods like broan, nutone. Look also advantage mobile
home products.
maggie MI,
There are places you can post pictures on the web for free. One place is
snapfish.com Or you can email me the drawing and I will post it here for you. You
can email me by going to my page next to my name.
redredwine,
That's a tough thing to do. Why don't you want glass shelves? Without the glass
shelves the only way to get light on every shelf is with light on every shelf. With
frameless cabinets it's even harder because there is no place to conceal anything.
The only thing I can suggest is Satco makes a very slim tube light encased in a
metal shield that comes in colors like black, white, chrome, brass etc. They are
about 1/2" x 1/2" and come in different lengths, and if you electrician is
adnventurous they can even be cut a little for perfect fits, although it is not
necessary. With those you can place one under each shel near the back.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Ltngbolt:
I thought I had seen this somewhere, but cannot find it. Do you know of any zenon bulbs that
can be used in vent-hoods to replace the halogens? Is this possible? TIA.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Do you know what type of bulbs you have now? A number on them perhaps?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
I don't know as I was trying to find out in advance of ordering the hood, because I have a
potentially hot kitchen and am trying to cool it down. I will call the company first on this and
then get back to you. Thanks.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
I notice a topic that comes up often here is plugmold. It is a solution when one
doesn't want to see receptacles in the back splash. Plugmold is basically a strip
about 1" x 1 1/2" wide and comes in lengths the most common being 3 feet. It can
usually be cut to fit with most types although not always. The plugmold needs to be
GFCI protected either with a circuit breaker or a GFCI receptacle. Another similar
method to accomplish the same thing is using wiremold individual boxes.
There are a few things to consider if you are planning this. One, which is very
important is these need to be secured properly. If the cabinet bottoms are going to
be on the thin side 1/2" or less or a skin, there is not enough meat to hold a screw in
well. Unlike UC lights which just get touched to turn on and off, plugmold gets
pushed and pulled quite a lot when plugging and unplugging appliances. Another
consideration is when you have appliances plugged in your cords drape down from
the top and go right in front of the backsplash you were trying so hard not to tarnish.
Then there is the convenience factor, bending over and looking up everytime you
want to plug something in.
Part of the reason I think people end up going with plugmold is they are not made
aware of some of the options in colors they can get the receptacles in. weed30 had a
great picture of a tile backsplash in which the receptacles blended so well they were
nearly invisible. Besides the colors that are available, they can actually be made to
match a color of your choice.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
ltnbolt,
You have been so helpful will all my questions, but I need to throw another one out here.
Our kitchen is connected to a family room, so as a part of the remodel, we will also be doing
some minor changes in the FR, which includes installation of lighting. As a part of this, I was
planning to install recessed cans with wall washers in three areas where we need lighting, but
basically want to light up pictures, etc. I didn't want to go with low voltage as I really don't
like those plug in type bulbs, and I didn't want to go with 6 inch cans because they're so big.
That basically leaves me with 4" or 5". I haven't been able to find a manufacturer who makes
the scoop wallwasher trim in 5", so I think I'm left with 4". However, in 4", the Juno's seem
only to take R bulbs and not PAR, which I was hoping for, and I don't know how wide the
beam spread would be. I was guessing they should be placed about 2 to 3 feet from the wall
and three feet apart. I'm guessing that the pictures would be about 3 feet down on the wall.
Any suggestions? I really need help on this one.
Thanks in advance.
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RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Ok, I just spent a while (finally!) reading most of what was posted on this thread (I & II).
And I have a stupid question.
It seems to me that if the can light is located directly above the edge of the counter, that
would create the worst shadows. I mean as you stand at the counter, and lean over it, you'd
be blocking the light wouldn't you?
Plus, if you're standing directly below the can light, your head would feel the heat from the
light. No?
I'm just trying to understand since I know nothing about lighting!
Thanks for answering this as I'm sure the answer is obvious and I'm just being stupid!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
ltngbolt,
I've come across the names of several brands of undercabinet lighting but don't recall seeing
Alico mentioned. They seem to be significantly less expensive than Kichler (at least in the
store we saw them in). Do you have any knowledge of their products or any opinions you
could share?
Many thanks!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
A question for you, ltngbolt. This is not kitchen related, but general recessed can related. I
have a little alcove, only 3' x 6' that needs a light. I plan on putting in a recessed light, but the
problem is that this is a small gabled area, so I want it to be airtight, IC contact. It is in an
existing ceiling, so a remodeling can is required. And, the ceiling is only 6' high, so I was
hoping for compact fluorescent. So, needs are: remodel, air tight, insulation contact, CF, and
I was hoping to use a 4" or 5" can due to the small size of the space. Any leads for
manufacturers that could provide all this in one package?
Thanks
Here is a link that might be useful: Pic of alcove
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Hi Cheryll1,
You can also look at halo h99 with a 992 trim but it also only takes r20 bulbs. I don't
think your going to find a wall wash with the type of trim that can take a par bulb,
only an eyeball type. Is there a reason for the par bulb? Your distances are all right.
Lowspark,
There are no stupid questions. As far as the placement it's my opinion, doesn't mean
it is a rule. Here is my thoughts on the matter though. The light comes out of the
recessed light in a cone at about 60 degrees. If you visualize that cone looking from
the side as you move the light away from the cabinet the light angle starts to go
under the cabinet. If the light is very close to the top cabinet the cabinet itself
prevents the light from going under at all, creating a distinctive line or shadow. By
pulling the light out to about a foot from the top cabinet the effect is that some of
that light makes it under the cabinet and onto the counter deeper back. Also at a
foot off it is still withing a range where your not creating a shadow when working on
the countertop. Think about it, when you are working on a counter in a kitchen do
you ever lean so far foward that your head is hitting the cabinet doors.
All this is not to say they can't be 6" off and still not be effective. If you look at my
pages about recessed lighting there are some diagrams that show the angle of light
and intentsity that may help to visualize it. In regards to the heat I can only say in 25
years and doing electric in about 200-300 kitchens a year for the last 10 I have
never had anyone complain about the heat from the bulbs. I also rarely use more
than an 85 watt bulb and maybe that's a factor.
chronos,
I am not familiar with that brand. I did take a look and they look good in the
pictures. I couldn't tell you quality without working with them. I like xenon and think
it's a good choice for UC lighting. If you do use them please let me know how it
works out. I am always looking for different product options.
abm760,
About the closest thing I can come up with is a Halo H274R which is a remodel can
fluorescent and airtight. But it's a normal 6" size. I don't know of any 4"
fluorescents recessed cans that are airtight. That is a small package to fit whats
needed for that type of fixture. If you really need to go with a 4" I would suggest a
low voltage can which of course would not be fluorescent. Providing you have the
height in the ceiling, I think a normal size can like the 6" would look fine in that size
alcove.
Here is a link that might be useful: Cone of Light Diagrams
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
lgtngbolt,
Just read about your dog. So sorry to read of your loss.
When using rope above upper cabinets how far apart should the two ropes be spaced?
Should the pair be placed toward the front, center or rear of the cabinet?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
ltngbolt:
I looked up the halogen bulbs listed with the vent hood and they are HRC-16+C E27 120V
35 W bulbs. Is there a zenon bulb that could be used instead? TIA.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Could you fit a medium base fluorescent bulb into a 5" can, instead of a standard incadescent
bulb? Such as the Halo EI500RAT, or the Juno IC20R with an airtite trim? I found a CF
PAR30 bulb at Buylighting.com
Thanks
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
ltngbolt -- You give alot of valuable info about kitchen lighting. Do appreciate it!
I'm taking your advice -- Halo H-5ic which is a 5" can with a white baffle. Reveal light bulbs
since I'm going to have light cabs. If you can look at my kitchen layout and tell me where to
place the hi-hats (recess lights).
Task or Juno for the underpart of cabs. Should I place under very cabinet?
But what should I use in the glass cabinets?
While shopping I saw 3" - 4" recess lights should I use this size over the sink area? Or can
you suggest something else?
How many light switches do you think I need?
Sorry, for all these questions. As you can tell it's just mind boggling....
Thanks.......
Here is a link that might be useful: Kitchen Plans
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Someone in "Plugmold and undercabinet lighting" wrote, "Could someone point me to a web
site with an overview of wiring strategies for undercabinet lighting? . . . No one seems to talk
about how their cabinets were wired. . ." No one has answered yet. I also would like this
info. We put a separate outlet inside every cabinet, but it seems like overkill.
Also, we have a dropped 7' ceiling over the "work" part of the kitchen. This dropped ceiling
is 7x8 feet between the upper cabinets, with joists every 2'. Would eight 5" cans (or even 4"
cans), 3 along each countertop side and 2 in the middle, be a good layout? If we put them
along the counter lines, there is too much space in the middle. The refrigerator sticks out at
one corner; should we just position the lights symmetrically anyway? What wattage? We'd
like to try the Reveal lights.
Lastly, for undercabinet lighting, we started getting carried away with Xenon$$ fixtures. But
how about GE Profile - anyone comment?
Thanks to all of you for a great forum.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
wildchild,
Two rope lights you'll want to keep them at least an inch apart and two if you have
the room. They should be near to the front as possible. It's a great look! And thanks
for the kind words.
kayjay,
I can't find anything but it may be out there. If it's what I think it is the bulb is a
short medium based halogen. I can't find a xenon to replace it with. Don't be too
concerned about the heat output. A halogen is only 30% hotter than a xenon.
abm760,
Although I don't think you'll find them listed, I don't see why you couldn't use a
compact fluorescent in those fixtures providing you could find one that would fit in
the fixture, and that shouldn't be a problem.
cruzzinpattis and maro I'll address your questions tomorrow. Long day finishing a
kitchen today and I am so tired my heads about to hit the keyboard.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
I posted in a different forum, before I was "shown the light" and pointed in your direction.
What a well informed and willing person you are, as I have read this entire thread, I have
been very impressed.
We have a 1950 built home in the southwest, just remodeled the kitchen and were planing on
using track lighting because of the ability to light and not get too "western" with the holes in
the ceiling. However, I was admonished today not to use track in a kitchen. The space we
are lighting is 12x8, face of upper to face of upper.
My wife is a cooking "Angel", and is always in the kitchen cooking for friends and family, it is
her passion and I want to do the right thing by her, don't want to have her in a dark area with
odd lighting.
Have we been told the right thing or is it alright to use track? It is a "U" shaped kitchen, light
colored cabinets, multi colored slate floor with "Blue Eyes" granite counter tops.
Thank you for any direction you can give!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Before you answer my triple question above :), a note: the joists are not showing, they just
restrict the light placement.
A very important extra question - (how many do I get? I am so appreciative) If I have
undercabinet lighting, is it still important to have the recessed lights at the same line as the
counter edge? Or can I just have recessed lights toward the middle, and have less?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Ltngbolt,
You really are a gem! Thank you for being so helpful and spending so much time here. We're
in the middle of a whole house renovation, and I know that lighting can "make it or break it",
especially in the kitchen, so I've been hanging on every word of your advice.
We only have one shot to do this right because all of our recessed lights aren't going into
regular drywall that can be re-done and patched. We have an old beach cottage that
originally was a vaulted wooden uninsulated ceiling, paneled with tongue and groove panels
sloping on each side with a big beam down the center at about 12' high at the center peak.
During the renovation, we're putting our wiring behind the vaulted panels and cutting holes
into them where we want recessed lights, and then we're going to put some insulation in and
put the roof on. The house is a single story. We've been told over and over again by our
electrician and our contractor to get it right the first time because we may not be able to put
in lighting later since most of the wiring is being run through the ceiling and won't be
accessible later (as I understand it).
So this is my question - Are there any standard rules for placing recessed lights in vaulted
ceilings? Our electrician is using mostly 6" cans, spaced at about 4'-5' apart in some areas
and further apart in others, and will use an eyeball device to help direct the light straighter
down. I'm worried both about the direction of the light and the strength of it since the
placement of many of the cans throughout the ceiling puts them up high on the vault, towards
the center beam. I know you usually advise putting cans about 5' apart, and 30" off the wall,
but I'm wondering if this rule of thumb applies with a vaulted ceiling, sloping on each side.
We'll be using incandescent instead of halogen (hope this was the right decision, but our
electrician convinced us it was nicer light and is less expensive). He seems good but not
necessarily up on all the latest stuff.
In addition to the recessed lights, which will serve as general lighting throughout our great
room/kitchen area, all of which is within this large vaulted area, we will also use a chandelier
for the dining area, undercabinet lights in the kitchen and 3 LBL pendants over the
penninsula. Also, we're having 2 outlets put in the floor on either side of where the sofa will
be (there's only one logical spot for sofa placement) so that we can use floor lamps. So, it's
not as if the recessed lights will be the only lighting, but we also don't want the cans to be
frustratingly sparse or directed wrong.
One more question - have you ever done undercabinet lights under open shelving, and if so,
do you have any words of advice? We're doing open shelving in most of our kitchen instead
of upper cabinets and we're planning to put xenon or halogen undercabinet lighting under the
bottom shelves. The cabinetmaker will create some type of a lip on the front of the shelves to
hide the lighting, but I hope it will truly be hidden and, more importantly, that a shelf will be
sturdy enough to hold the lighting. I was going to put plugmold up there, too, until I read your
post and have now thought better of it.
I greatly appreciate any help you can offer. By the way, have you ever thought about opening
up an internet electrial consulting/advice website? You'd probably have a thriving business;
there's such pent-up demand for your information and experience, and I feel guilty asking for
such valuable free advice. I just moved to CA from the east coast, and if I was still in your
area, I'd be joining what is I'm sure a long list of your customers!
So sorry to hear about your dog.
All the best,
Carli
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
This may be a long post, I'll try to answer all of your questions so scroll down for your
particular question.
cruzinpattis,
Your link is coming up file not found so I can't see the kitchen layout, maybe you
can try that again. As to your questions. The small 4" recessed lights over the sink
works well. The UC lighting IMO if your doing it you may as well do all the cabinets
and on a switch of it's own if possible. Inside the cabinets either mini high hats or
approved pucks. If I can see those drawings, I'll try to help with the layout and
switching.
maro,
If I could see the actual layout it would help greatly. Using the small recessed cans
you get a lot less of a spread of light. For that reason the further you go into the
middle of the room the less light you are going to have where you need it most, on
the work areas. GE Profile is not a bad fixture at all and fluorescents as I have said
are a very cost effective way of lighting the counters. The other alternative that will
also allow dimming is Kichler's. They cost about $15 more a fixture than
fluorescents. Your question about wiring strategies for all this undercabinet wiring is
a good one. I am working on some information and once I get it together I'll post
something about it. If I could see a layout I will gladly offer more advice in the way
of layout.
mgb4us,
Thank you for the kind words. Track lighting in a kitchen is not my first choice but it
can be done in some cases. First you need to have the room. The tops of the cabinet
doors need to be low enough so they don't interfere with the track heads. So if your
upper cabinets have about a foot of space above them it will work. The track can be
installed parallel to the counters in a U shape like the kitchen and about 3 feet off
the wall. The best type of track and heads would be something low voltage to keep
the size as small as possible. One problem with big track heads is they become a
focal point. Most people after spending thousands on cabinets prefer to have the
kitchen be the focal point not the light fixtures (other than some pendants of course).
On the upside of the track is the fact that heads can be moved, directed and added if
more are needed. So if your decor requires it, track is certainly a feasible
alternative to recessed lighting. As I always tell people, you have to decide what you
really want and then we can make that work. If you had no preference then recessed
lighting would be my choice if it fits the decor.
carli,
Thank you also for the kind words. I am going to take another post later to answer
you since there are a few issues. If there is any chance I can see a layout it would be
helpful. Also how high are the ceilings? and what angle if you know?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
ltngbolt,
This is really fun, thank you. I think I'll try to send you a layout in your e-mail later today as I
don't know much about links and all. I abandoned the plan for just lighting the middle; thank
you for the advice, it makes sense.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
ltngbolt, now it's finally my turn to ask a question:
The Task line of undercabinet lighting--could you tell me what would determine when you'd
use a Luche light and when you'd use a Lumere? All I can tell is that the Luche creates a
"bright" light, whereas the Lumere creates a "moderately bright" light, or words to that
effect...they both look the same in the pics to me.
Do you have thoughts/experience with both of these lines?
thanks, and apologies in advance if I've missed your commenting on this already--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ps re Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Also, sorry ltngbolt--
The GE linkable "full-spectrum" fluorescents carried at HD that are energy star rated--I
wasn't clear on what you were saying about the term "full-spectrum", other than that it's
misleading, right? But compared to other fluorescents, it would be a more natural, less
traditional 'fluorescent' look, right? Thanks again for any thoughts on this...
Happy Spring Celebration, too :)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Ltngbolt,
I wish I could post the layout, but I don't know how to do that. Sorry! I realize I was asking
a lot of you to comment without seeing an actual layout. I'll find out what angle and exactly
how high the ceiling is, and will report back to you. Even if you can't offer specific advice on
my project, I'm still learning a lot from your general lighting advice. Thanks again,
Carli
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Carli,
You can email it to me if you like. With the angle and height I can give you some input.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Ltngbolt
Let's see if you can view at this site.
If not, can I also email on to you?
Thanks,
Chris (Long Island)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
cruzinpattis,
Try emailing it to me. The album won't let me in it says I'm not logged in.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Good Grief! Our cans for the lights went in today. (I learned so much from this forum, even
though I never got my plan to ltngbolt.) Marked exactly where they were going, lined them
up nice and straight. Sawed the holes. Wired everything. They're beautiful, but they're 6"
outside the counter line.
Regardless of my meticulous drawing, and husband's meticulous measuring, a really ridiculous
miscommunication took place.
My mistake was in not putting in a dimension from the wall to the first light, even though the
drawing did show the countertop line. DOUBLE CHECK EVERYTHING.
I think the lights may be spaced close enough (due to joists and other things, three lights are
only 28" apart, and I did use 6" cans) that shadows may not be that bad - ? Also, the colors
are very light. When the current goes on, I'll let you know. . . .
Thanks again,
Maro
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Maro,
The 6" outside the line is fine. Up to 3 feet from the wall works well. You can't
always put the lights exactly where you want them due to the ceiling joists, you can
only do the best you can. It takes considerable measuring and figuring sometimes
just to get a layout that will work within the confines of the ceiling joists. Sounds like
you did fine. Let us know how it turns out.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
ltngbolt!! I need your help. We have a 23' x 10' galley kitchen with 4 doors, a chimney
obstruction, 9 feet of casement windows the tops of which will start about 8" down from an
eyebrow kind of ceiling (like a Dutch colonial). The rest of the ceiling in the kitchen is 8'
(which was originally 9 foot, but someone dropped it down), and above that window the
ceiling drops down to 7 foot.
I don't want to block the beautiful view out those windows, but we need to replace the
flourescent flush ceiling light over the kitchen table. Should we replace it with another "close
to the ceiling fixture", a pendant light, or recessed? Which one would give the best light over
the breakfast nook, be the least obtrusive, and look the best? I figure it could hang down no
more than 24" so as not to obstruct the view out that window at all, keeping in mind that we
have a 100 year old farmhouse type home.
Depending upon what you recommend for over the table, what then should go over the sink.
We will also have a similarly beautiful view and matching casement windows (but only 43
inches wide by about 40 inches high) over the sink.
We will have potlights in the main area of the kitchen.
Thanks very much.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Hi littlebit,
Over the sink I would probably say 1 or 2 small recessed lights since you are using
recessed in the kitchen that should fit in fine. For over the table breakfast nook you
might want to put a ceiling fixture to define the area. Here is a fixture that I can
envision for a house you describe. Link below.
Here is a link that might be useful: Ceiling Light
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
ltngbolt, should I infer something or did you just happen to miss my messages to you on
Sunday? (look up a few messages)
Did I ask something wrong? Or something dumb? I'm sorry if I did...I could really use your
thoughts on the luche vs. lumere...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
elsieCat,
I'm sorry I totally missed your question. Don't be bashful I need a knock on the
head sometimes *smiles*
Light wise there isn't too much difference. The luche is a little brighter only because
it is a fixture and has a little bigger area of reflective metal. The main difference in
the two is with the Lumere you are dealing with modules that are 4" long so you can
custom fit it in all situations while the Luche is fixtures that come in predetermined
sizes. Hope this helps and sorry again about missing your question.
If you have anymore questions I'd be happy to answer
Paul
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Thanks very much ltngbolt. Very nice. I think you hit it on the head. I had been looking at
something like that. I haven't totally ruled out something like an old wharf or cargo light.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips Part II
Paul:
Before you start "Part III" let me ask you, in terms of kitchen chandliers (or in plain talk, the
big fixtures that hang in the nook over the kitchen table), what looks classic given that it is
more informal setting than say, a Waterford crystal chandlier in the formal dining room.
Trends/fashion in lighting come and go. Remember those swag lights that you could pull
down closer to the table top or push them back up into the ceiling? Seemingly goofy, yet so
practical for sewers, etc. We need a fixture to illuminate a table that will seat ten but I don't
want something that will scream "2004" in a few years. What metal finishes, glass, etc. do
you think stands the test of time? What about ceiling fans? Please forgive me if you've already
addressed this elsewhere in this thread, I haven't read Part II lately as its grown and have
some catching up to do. Thank you for your advice!
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