| Electrical FAQS - Frequently asked questions |
Why do I need so many receptacles on my kitchen counter back splash?
In a kitchen the code requires that no point along the counter top be more
than 24" from an outlet. Also any counter 12" or more requires a receptacle.
These receptacles must all be GFI protected.
than 24" from an outlet. Also any counter 12" or more requires a receptacle.
These receptacles must all be GFI protected.
The wire on my service outside is missing the outside insulation, is this
dangerous?
dangerous?
A light fixture in my house is flickering, what should I do?
A flickering light could be the symptom of several problems. This should be
checked. It could be a loose connection in the circuit. It could also be a
problem outside your house especially if all the lights in the house seem to be
flickering. In any case like this it's best to not use the lights and call a licensed
electrician to check it out.
checked. It could be a loose connection in the circuit. It could also be a
problem outside your house especially if all the lights in the house seem to be
flickering. In any case like this it's best to not use the lights and call a licensed
electrician to check it out.
I plug my hair dryer in the bathroom and when the air conditioner is on in
the bedroom the breaker trips, why?
the bedroom the breaker trips, why?
A receptacle in my bathroom, kitchen or elsewhere stopped working?
Check the receptacle if it is a GFI it may be tripped. These are the receptacles
with a reset button on them. The receptacle may need to be reset. It is
possible on an older home to find the GFI receptacle in the garage is also
protecting a second floor bath, so check carefully.
with a reset button on them. The receptacle may need to be reset. It is
possible on an older home to find the GFI receptacle in the garage is also
protecting a second floor bath, so check carefully.
I smell a fish like odor near a receptacle or near my electric panel?
| The following is a series of questions and answers about lighting that has been very helpful to a great many people. The site that hosted the forum, and still does is a great site called The Garden Web. |
I am posting this here from another forum at someone's request hope it helps here
as well.
As an electrical contractor and being in the construction field for over 25 years there
are some consistent mistakes I see made in new homes and renovations. Maybe
some of this can be helpful.
A house or any particular room can be carefully planned, well thought out and
perfectly executed but without the proper lighting it never really comes to life. A
perfect example is a tile back splash in a kitchen. Without some nice under cabinet
lighting to show it off it never really reaches it's potential as an eye opener.
As you plan each room there are three basic forms of lighting. General Lighting -
which light you need in a room to function. A means to safely navigate the room in
the dark of night. Accent Lighting - light that highlights a particular item or items of
importance to you or the room design. Task lighting - light that serves a function
related to a particular task or area where work is performed.
A kitchen benefits most from all three forms of lighting in most cases. Recessed
lighting combined with a pendant or two and possibly a ceiling fan can provide the
general lighting. Under cabinet lighting serves two functions. It acts as Task lighting
for working on the countertop as well as Accent lighting to highlight that beautiful
countertop and back splash. Additional accent lighting can be added in glass
cabinets, which really brings them to life. In some cases where crown molding is
installed and there is space above some cove lighting can create a wonderful effect
and ambience to a room.
In a living room a couple of well placed wall washers can turn an fireplace wall that
seemed ordinary into a piece of art. Perhaps you are planning on a wall to display
photos or a collection of art posters. Wouldn't it be nice to light that independently
and show it off? Along with the lighting, the way in which they are switched is almost
as important. A room with 9 recessed lights that all come on at once lacks
forethought.
In any room by breaking the lights that are switched into sections or patterns and
through the use of dimmers, a room can take on many personalities and moods.
When considering switches it is also important to consider traffic flow through the
house. There is nothing worse than a setup where you have to go back and turn a
light off only to proceed in the dark. With the proper planning and use of 3 way and 4
way switches the house can be so much more user friendly.
If you find this info useful let me know and I can keep going.............and going..........and
going lol
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
This is just the thread I was hoping to find! *smile* We are preparing to embark on a full
kitchen re-do. I can hardly wait to rid the ceiling of that "lovely" fluorescent box! The question
is, what to replace it with? Our kitchen is a small galley, 11 1/2 x 8 1/2. It is open on both
ends, (the kids love to run circles through it), and there is a 33"sq window at one end. Next
to the window is part of the slider door, so we do get some natural light, although none of it is
direct because there is a covered patio directly outside. We have been looking at those "new"
bendable track lights, but we are concerned that the five halogen bulbs wouldn't give off
enough light at night. (Any thoughts?) Recessed lights are another option. The kitchen ceiling
is directly below a large attic, so it is easily accessible. (We've installed can lights before
elsewhere.) Do you think recessed lights are a better solution than the bendable track light? If
so, how many cans would you recommend for a space that size? The "general lighting" is
giving us the hardest time. As much as we dislike the fluorescent box, it is what we're used to.
I sure appreciate any help you are able to give! Thanks so much!
Stacie
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
I'm also having trouble with our general lighting plan. How do you determine the
number/placement of recessed lights? And what features should you look for in these lights?
I'm going to have an L-shaped kitchen with island and was thinking of pendant lights over the
island and table, plus under-cabinet lights, in addition to the recessed lights.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tipsLaura, I'm having the same kind of kitchen lighting but am
confused about the undercabinet kind. Do you know what you are getting?
Keep going ltngbolt! I wish our electrician was as helpful as you are. Thanks!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Meggswife I drew a quick layout for a galley kitchen from your explanation, not sure
if it's right. As for the lighting in a kitchen I prefer recessed cans. One main reason
is you can place the lights close enough to the counters that you won't get shadows.
About 24" off the wall which puts the center of the light even with the outside edge
of the countertop. Of course ceiling joists can alter the layout. As for the size of the
cans, in a smaller room you may want to go with a smaller can like a halo H-5 which
is a 5" can or you can go to something in the 4" range but then you may need 8
lights as opposed to 6. If the room looks like I drew a ceiling fan in the center could
make a nice addition as well, but no light kit on it just a clean close to the ceiling fan.
Laura, Pendants over the island is a great look and works fine as a look with
recessed lighting in the room. Placement of the recessed lights depends on the size
of the can. For standard 6" cans in a kitchen setting with 8 foot ceilings, I don't like
to go more than 4-5 feet between fixtures. I will try to elaborate more later, need to
get off to a job right now.
Here is a link that might be useful: Galley Kitchen
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Keep going ltngbolt! What do I do for light in the 1/2 of my kitchen that has exposed, hand
hewn beams? The "working half of the kitchen" (the two sides are divided by a peninsula with
recessed cans over the stove) has a regular plaster ceiling. It will have an island that I plan to
put a pendant over. But what do I do about lighting in the non-working half? I have a
fireplace there, a couch and my kitchen table - pushed up against the peninsula. Right now we
just use lamps but it always seems dark. - Crey
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt:
Please give your opinion re: mixing different types of light in the kitchen.
I currently have halogen undercabinet lighting, flourescent general lighting and an incandescent
chandelier over the breakfast room table. To me, the lights all have different colors and it
gives a strange effect. What do you recommend for a new kitchen lighting plan?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
thanks ltngbolt! Would you please also comment on the "swiss cheese" look? I have seen so
many kitchen designs where there are way too many cans in the ceiling. Unneeded and looks
terrible.
I have only 5 cans in my ceiling, along the L of the counter, then 3 mini pendants over the
island. There are 4 more cans elsewhere in the main area - 2 over a couch and 2 over a
display cabinet. Then a fixture over the table. The original designer put 12 cans *just in the
kitchen area*! WITH PENDANTS!
Finally, I do have a burning need: My display cabinet needs lighting inside. Because of the
way the doors open I need lights that are less than 1" front to back. I also don't want anything
very bright, just a nice soft glow. These would be linked together or not, but ultimately would
be plugged in to the wall, no room for any more switches. Any suggestions? Thanks!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt,
Thanks so much for your informative comments. We're building a custom house. Do you
recommend getting a lighting designer or should a good electrician be able to advise properly?
Thanks.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt, How's it feel to be so...popular?!!! We've missed you and you didn't even know
you were missing!
Here's my dilemma: I think I'm covered for most of the lighting, and everything's on dimmers
with 3-ways in the appropriate place. We've got rope lighting 7 feet high, recessed task
lighting (halogen), and mini pendants over the island with two ceiling fans in the walkway
(incandescent). There are no upper cabinets and I'd love my low (around 6.5 inches)
backsplash to show up and glitter. Will the halogen task lighting be sufficient? (My other
concern is the halogen lights are too warm although they'll be 10 feet high...)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt,
As you can see, your post hit a nerve. The basic information you provided in the first note
was wonderful, yet many of us are still not clear on how much light. Like weed30, I am wary
of the "swiss cheese effect" (well-put, weed!) I have a bungalow that only had one ceiling light
in each room, and am trying to find a way to do the lighting that is efficient and effective, yet
still respectful of the home's style. I went from being adamant about no recessed lighting to
being open to it, but it seems the advice from electricians I am getting is more, more, more.
So my question is, with a modest size kitchen (12 x 15) that will have a ceiling fixture (general
light) over the table in the center, halogen lights within the range hood for task lighting there,
and a pendant light over the sink for that task lighting, how how much more lighting is really
necessary?
Do you follow some general guidelines when setting how much recessed lighting to put in?
How far from the counter edge do you recommend placement to avoid casting shadows
while working at the counter?
Thanks for your comments.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt,
Thank you so much for your helpful response, (and helpful sketch)! After seeing your
drawing, I agree that recessed lights will work/look best. You are a "light-saver"! Have a
great day!
Stacie
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Wow I am overwhelmed with the response. I promise I will answer all these
questions. I work on this mostly in the evening since I am busy during the day
physically doing the same. Tonight I will get to these.
One thing I could use help with is weed30, how did you get that link right in the text
of your message? It would certainly let me answer easier if I could do that. As for
that cabinet Satco makes a nice product but it is not on their website. It comes in 10,
20 and 30" lengths and is basically a 3 sided metal frame with one open side that the
light eminates from. The light is mild and not bright and perfect for that application.
It comes in black metal which suits wood well.
More to come
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Crey, the situation of 1/2 the room with exposed beams you can use a low voltage
track light. Something along the lines of a juno track if the beams are not really
large. The reason is with a low voltage track and heads the whole setup is small and
can easily be hidden and not so obtrusive as big bulky track heads. I am not a big
fan of track lights but there are times it is perfect for an application. They use
halogen lights and can give good lighting that can be directed where you want it.
spacific, I can tell you my preference but with my customers I first get a feel for how
much light they feel comfortable with. For me I want a room to be capable of
different moods and functions. Take a bedroom for instance. Most times when in use
you don't need much light since your sleeping or involved in other low light activities.
But there are times such as cleaning, changing sheets, making beds and getting
dressed that you may want to have good light to see what you are doing. In most
rooms in the 12 x 12 or 14 x 14 size by placing 4 recessed lights about 30" of each
corner symetrically on a dimmer, you can have excellent general lighting or romantic
lighting for those other times.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt: To have a clickable link, you just find the web address of the photo you want to
show. Then you insert it in between some simple HTML commands. ie:
<a href=http://www.greatlighting.com>Great Lighting</a>
Note that the "a href" has a space, but that is the only space in there. You can name the link
whatever you want, I used Great Lighting in the example. Make sure you don't forget to
"close" the link command by using the
</a>
command.
If you need more help, just email me and I can create the syntax for you. Click on my name
for the email link.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Thanks weed30, I will try and use it here. One of the best undercabinet lighting
systems I have used is Task Lighting It is a low voltage linear system. It is a little
more money than some others but quality wise I think it's the best.
As for the swiss cheese effect I suppose I would have to see a picture of a job that
you felt looked that way. I think if the lights are properly placed and layed out
symetrically the lights look like they should be there.
Different types of lighting can have a very noticeable effect on the color you see.
Incandescents cast a yellow tint and on some kitchen cabinets it can be an adverse
look. Halogen and most newer fluorescents can give a true color rendering to the
cabinet finish.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt, thank you for the tip on the Satco lights. I sent them an email describing what I want.
You may end up being sorry you posted your offer to help here...lighting is really a hot topic
and confusing to most!
We all hope you stick around though!!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Thanks for your comments ltngbolt.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt~ Thank you!
I am in the middle of a kitchen addition, and I've made most of the lighting decisions-
recessed cans, alabaster chandelier over table, pendant over sink.
I am still confused about under cabinet lights to light up my counter work space. Do you
recommend xenon, halogen, or fluorescent? Any particular brand? What about spacing?
Should they be installed at the front edge of the upper cabinet or the back edge touching the
wall?
Thanks for all your help!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ArtTeacher,
The actual type of light is really a matter of choice. The most economical and trouble
free are thinline fluorescents. You can purchase UC fluorescents from your local
electrical supply (my first choice) or a large home store. These we always mount
against the backsplash wall, hard wired. They provide ample light and the bulbs last
a couple of years.
If you want to go a little higher in price my favorite light is xenon and the company
Task Lighting makes a few different types. If you are doing a nice tile backsplash
you want to show off, these mounted near the front of the cabinet will really do the
job. The kitchen in the first group of photos in thisPhoto Gallery was done with Task
Lighting.
As far as spacing if you use fluorescents you want to go as large as you can under
each cabinet. With the low voltage linear lighting like Task, you want to try and have
it go from end to end on every cabinet row, of course remaining within any light rail
being installed.
Do you have any glass cabinets? If so don't overlook the potential to light them from
inside as well.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
We are building a new house and visited the lighting center our builder uses this week. We
were set to use xenon lighting under the cabinets. The designer recommended flourescent for
under the counter. They had two kitchens with xenon lighting on display. They both had
strong hot spot reflections in the counter from the bulbs. She said flourescent gives much
more even lighting. Not what I expected. Anyone experience bulb reflection with xenon
lighting?
Bob
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Bob,
What type of reflection were you seeing? Was it a granite countertop? What kind of
fixtures, was it a mini track or a strip, pucks or individual fixtures?
Remember, and this is the case with any lighting on a granite gloss counter, in any
dark solid colors especially. They act like a mirror and you will see the underside of
the cabinet as well as the lighting when you are standing in fron of the counter.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
I went to the library last night and one of the books (which was 6-7 years old) recommended
against recessed can lighting because it can be quite hot if you're standing under it. Is this
true? Most of you seem to be getting those can lights -- can you give me some advice on
what size to get and where to place them?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
If your cans are halogen, yes, this could be possible. I have incandescent cans, and they are
terrific.
I have halogen pendants over the island, and the lights get HOT!! They only have 35w bulbs.
They are also incredibly bright - they hurt my eyes if I'm sitting at the island and glance up at
them. Wish they made 20w bi-pins in the size I need.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
The only time heat from fixtures is really a concern, providing of course
manufacturers recommendation for bulb wattage size is followed, is if the ceiling is
unusally low. In a normal setting, recessed cans should not make a real noticeable
difference in room temperature. That said, I have seen cases where there are so
many lights that it actually does add heat to a room.
Another factor is bulb wattage. Going back a few years it was not uncommon to put
150 watt floods in recessed cans. Now in that case, yes you could feel the heat. This
could account for what you read in the book. Today no one I know in this business
uses 150watt floods anymore.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Thanks for setting my mind at ease about the recessed cans. How many do you think I need?
My L-shaped kitchen (with island) and eating area will be 13' x 22' (the L itself is about
13'x14'). Do you scatter them all over the area or just near the countertops in the kitchen?
Oh and I was thinking of getting a solar tube too, maybe about 5' from the corner walls. We
have a window but it faces north. This lighting business sure is confusing, but I'd like to plan it
properly.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Laura, I have an L shaped kitchen that is 10' x 12' and I only have 5 cans along the counters.
The electrician wanted to put one out in front of the fridge/pantry but it would not have lined
up with the other cans, and besides there is a light in the fridge ;)
They are more evenly spaced than they look in the pic below - the angle I shot from was
funny.
Here is a link that might be useful: cans
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
weed30, the kitchen came out beautiful. I to would have suggested another recessed can
over the fridge. I will give you my reasoning but I don't discount your line of thinking. There is
no right and wrong in any of this, we all have different tastes. The reason is although the fridge
does have a light, the cabinets don't. In order to see well in those cabinets you would need
your pendants on. The other reason is with the recessed cans on the whole run of cabinets is
not uniformly lit. It seems that the light would be out of line but if it is placed the same distance
from the top of cabinet it looks okay.
If you have area opposite the L-shape kitchen that you need to light as well you can line some
of theses cans up with those to have a symmetrical pattern. Think about your switching
options as well.
Laura P,
A layout similar to the one in weed's picture, is a good one. Keeping the lights about
4 feet apart with an 8 foot ceiling and lining them up so the center of each is lined up
with the countertop edge gives you nice uniform light over the counters.
One other very important point. I know you mentioned a solar tube, which is great,
but always remember when designing a lighting plan you don't want to take daylight
into account. Believe it or not I have seen people design a room and later realize
that it actually gets dark at night and that big window is useless.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt: Any rule of thumb to tell if one's lighting plans are sufficient? My state (Calif) requires
fluorescent for general kitchen lighting. I plan to use use two clouds in my tiny galley (9'
measured to end wall cabs that reach ceiling). The 16" diam. version model uses two 13W;
the 20" diam. one uses four 13W. My older eyes need more & more light, but I'm wondering
if the 20" is overkill. Or can one just reduce the # of bulbs one uses in the fluorescent fixture?
Thx for your insights.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
I didn't realize that was the case in California, very interesting. Talk about the
governement controlling every aspect of your life. Okay off the politics.
A 13 watt fluorescent puts out about 800 lumens, a measure of light. In a setting like
a kitchen, where you want to have good working light you would want about 15
lumens per square foot. Using this formula, if your room is about 10ft x 10ft you
would need two 13 watt bulbs. If you need higher than average light levels due to age
or other factors you may want to consider the 4 bulb fixture.
If I were to make a suggestion it would be to go with a 4 foot cloud fluorescent that
takes either 2 or 4 40 watt tubes. One 40 watt fluorescent tube emits about 2400
lumens. Because you mentioned a galley kitchen a longer light would give you better
overall spread.
On the topic of fluorescent light here is a bit of information. Fluorescent bulbs are
rated with long life hours, in the 15,000 hour range. But I recommend to people all
the time to change the bulbs once a year for standard bulbs and once every two
years for compacts. The reason is the gas in fluorescents diminishes with time and
the lumen output after one year can be as much as 30%. Unlike an incandescent
bulb which just plain goes out, fluorescent bulbs get dimmer with time so you
gradually get used to it and may not even realize your living with less light. That is
until you put those new bulbs in!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Okay...my turn now. I just had my first walk-thru to consider lighting. I think I can handle the
rest of the house, but I have questions about my kitchen.
Background: The kitchen is 20' x 32,' including the eating area. The built-in hutch (on right
looking at picture) will be lighted. There will be lighting that comes in the hood (4 halogens).
Inside the alcove, I had planned a "can" over each base cabinet flanking the range (there are
no upper cabs here). These would be outside the hood, but inside the alcove and not much
use to the rest of the kitchen. I had also planned 2 cans inside the valance over the sink area.
I had planned one large chandelier (or two smaller ones) over the kitchen table (this area
would be at the "bottom" of the picture, way opposite the range wall, but it is not shown).
The island closest to the range wall is the prep island. The other island is for
homework/entertaining.
Questions: I need to figure out how to light the islands and the perimeter of the kitchen. I had
thought I would put 3 cans along the sink wall (in addition to the two behind the valance) to
hit 50/50 on the counter edge. I thought I'd put two at the built-in hutch, each one closer to
where a side of the hutch meets a fridge (the hutch is between two refrigerator/freezers), to hit
50/50 on the counter edge.
I thought I'd put 2 over the prep island (6' x 4'), across the width. The second island is
trickier. Seating is only on the far end (toward the bottom of the page). I don't want to cast
shadows over the kids' shoulders while they are working.
I will have undercabinet lighting at the sink cabs and in the Baking Center (in the left
"alcove"). But it doesn't seem like I'll have enough light in the Baking Center. Should I just
stick another can in the area? I know exactly what Weed means about the Swiss cheese
effect!
I plan to have several different lighting zones. Also, I saw some really cute pendant lights that
I thought would look great, as a series of 3, over my prep island...but I don't want to clutter
up the ceiling, nor do I want to detract from the range wall, which is the whole reason for
building the new house. (Okay, just kidding, we were going to build anyway!)
Thank you for your advice! Where should I send my payment for consulting services??!! Deb
Here is a link that might be useful: Overhead View of Kitchen
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Okay I took your drawing and drew in the lights the way I understood them from
your description. I did add one light in the area to the right of the stove area because
it will be a dark area otherwise. As far as the rest, a layout like this should work
well. The light to the right of the sink area should help light up your baking center as
well if it is placed near enough to the end. It may create a bit of a shadow when your
standing there but if you add another one there it may look awkward. Is there any
type of UC lighting in that area?
As far as over the work area island at the bottom of the drawing, I think pendants
are a good idea. Two is what I would go with to try to keep that focal point(stove
area) fairly unobstructed. As far as those pendants I would look for two features.
One would be fixtures that could take up to 100 watt bulbs each if incandescent and
something that has a frosted glass so you get light projecting outward as well as
down. The reasoning is with this size kitchen, which looks like it will be beautiful
BTW, you could use the extra light unless you want to go with more recessed lights.
As for payment, lol since you asked, tell everybody you can about my shopping
website. You'd have to email me though because it wouldn't be right if I listed it here.
Here is a link that might be useful: Your Kitchen with Lights Added
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt...you got it! Yay! One vote for the pendants. No one I've talked with likes the idea.
Oh yes, I forgot about the light in front of the pantry. Good catch. I'll also email you. Thank
you again!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Glad to be of service :)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Thank you ltngbolt! You have very helpful and kind to give us all of this advice - Crey
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Yes, thank you. I can see that the architect put the lights in the wrong places big time in our
kitchen. But at least the mistakes are on paper and I could change them with the electrician.
At a window/sink or window with major prep area, where would you put the recessed can?
Still at the counter edge? Thanks again for all the advice.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
IMO, the cans should always be on the counter edge. If they are out further, they will be
behind you and you will cast a shadow on whatever you are doing at the counter. Too close
in and they lose their "cone" - diminishing the amount of light you have in the kitchen.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Yes, you have really struck a nerve here. Thank you so much for your illuminating :) advice!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
This is an extremely helpful thread! I have wired for undercabinet lighting but I am still very
undecided about whether or not I will install it. You see, I don't want them to be visible, but I
also do NOT want molding to hide them. We are going for a very sleek, retro-modern look,
Premier Bristol thermafoil cabs with a light green laminate countertop (Wilson Art Green
Glace). Molding just won't do. So I have basically been looking for the *skinniest* thing I
can find.
I've been looking at Xenon lights because they are cooler than halogen and we dislike the
coldness of flourescent lights. One solution that caught my eye was Pegasus Associates'
Xenon Low-Voltage Light Strip. Any experience with these? Does Task Lighting have an
equivalent or something else that will fit the bill? The button lights look promising, especially if
we recess them into the bottoms of the cabinets. BUT this doesn't seem to be the most
space-effective solution, obviously -- I can just imagine bumping the lamps every time I
unload the dishwasher.
Many thanks!
Here is a link that might be useful: Pegasus Xenon Light Strip
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Here is our lighting plan (you may have to scroll down on the link to see the schematic for
everything). Most of this is in place now, and we really love it. I think our GC thought we
were crazy, because it's a LOT of light (more than swiss cheese)! We were brightness happy.
Partly because it's a north room, and because we were doing deep, rich stained cherry, and
we wanted to be sure we could illuminate enough. Well, we can, but again, we're very
pleased with the results. We did these over 4 circuits, so we can control how much we want,
and dimmers are going in as well for additional control. I wanted to be able to create lots of
"moods" with the lighting, from bright for cooking to very soft for entertaining. And I wanted
the lights to show off the styling of the cabinets.
One thing we found was that lighting help was difficult to find. I think if I could have found a
lighting planner or expert, we would have, but we didn't quite know where to turn, so we did
it ourselves, with the help of a couple of books.
I'm really glad to see someone on-line who has knowledge and can give suggestions and
advice! This is a great thread, and should get bumped from time to time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt - so kind of you to offer this advice. What would be your thoughts on lighting around
a pot rack? My design calls for an L-shaped section of counter: 5 feet along the wall with a 2'
long (36" wide) peninsula extending out into the room, with a hanging potrack above. (On the
opposite/overhang side, the peninsula will provide a total of 4' of sitting space.) There will be
wall cabinets along the entire 5 feet of wall. Thanks for any help!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
benanas,
As far as the light in the sink area. I usually recommend that can be placed closer to
the wall in the case where a window is present and there is no wall cabinet.
Sometimes a smaller can and on a seperate switch near the sink. So mant customers
tell me they love having that seperate switch, so I would say it was a success.
aehughes,
Do the cabinets have any kind of reveal? About the tightest thing you can install is a
rope light which doesn't throw a great deal of light but is effective for ambience. The
other thing is Task Lighting (See the link below) Makes some very low profile
lighting, and it is bright. One fixture they have is 7/8".
femmelady,
I think you did a great job. In my eyes you can't have too much light in the kitchen.
There is no other room where lighting is more important. With the switches and
dimmers you get full control and have as much light as you need.
maggie_MI,
I need to ask a couple of questions on this one. Is the pot rack design a rectangle
with an open middle, an open grid or some other design? How far from the ceiling is
the rack. Are you looking for how to light around the rack for your counters, or did
you want to see how you can light the rack?
I have in the past used recessed cans over a pot rack, but there was some additional
ceiling height so it gave a nice effect. Let me know what you have and if by chance
you have a kitchen floorplan you can email it if you like.
Here is a link that might be useful: Task Lighting Fixtures
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
One aspect I find is often overlooked for it's lighting potential. This doesn't work in
all kitchens, but with ones that have a nice flow of upper cabinets and crown molding
with some space above, accent lighting above the cabinets is a show stopper. This
can be accomplished with several different products. Fluorescents, although not my
first choice, is one form of light. It does have a rather unique look but I prefer those
for tray ceilings with coves, that is an awesome look. Incandescent lighting is
another method with hollywood strips. My concern with those is the heat. I always
worry someone will put items that may be flammable above the cabinets for display,
like dried flowers.
The best solution I have found is rope lighting. It is economical both in cost and
useage. It doesn't generate dangerous heat levels. If purchased in an electrical
supply it can be made to size so you get complete coverage. There is one drawback
and that is you need 2 lines of it to get a nice effect. If you use 2 lines you just have
to leave a small space between them, which is not a problem since it's above the
cabinets and you can't see it anyway. It can also be dimmed. If you have seen some
of the kitchen pictures I posted here these were the type of over the cabinet light we
used.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
I noticed a question that comes up often is how to layout recessed cans or high hats.
In a kitchen setting, where good illumination is particularly important. the layout is
more critical than in say the living room. In order to create a layout that works well it
is important to understand the way the actual light eminates from the bulb. In the
case of a normal flood in a 6" recessed can, there is a 60 deg. beam of light.
This means in a room with 8 foot ceilings the circular pattern on the floor is about 9
feet in diameter. This however is not the whole picture. The most intense portion of
this light is in a circle of only 5 feet or so. The remainder is a diminishing amount of
light down to 0 at the edge. In a room requiring just general lighting placing the cans
5 to 6 feet apart will accomplish that, but in a kitchen there is another factor.
In a kitchen we are usually trying to illuminate the counters. The countertops are a
little over 3 feet off the ground. This reduces the beams width meaning 5 to 6 feet
will leave shadows or dark spots. By bringing the light in to a 4 foot spacing
eliminates this problem. See the diagrams to visualize this.
Here is a link that might be useful: Diagrams for Laying out Recessed Lighting
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt, thanks for all this great info; lighting baffles me but I can feel when it's right and
wrong. How do 10' ceilings affect the recessed can layout ?
In my 9x14 kitchen I specified 3 cans, 4' apart on each 14' length, 1' away from one 14' wall,
18" away from the other. That puts them 6.5' apart in the 9' direction - skylights take up the
space between them. One of the 14' walls is all window/glass door and the other has a 9 high
x 11 wide opening to the dining room. One of the cans is centered on a 5' wide cooktop
island at the edge of the counter. There will be a pendant over the 6' prep island, 4' away
from the window wall and uc florescent along the 9' wall. I like the look of lights above the
top cabinets (no soffits) but I won't be able to get up there to change them. Do I have enough
light ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt:
I posted earlier about the "funny" feel I get in my kitchen that has three different types of
lights: halogen undercab, flourescent bubble over island, and incandescent chandelier over
breakfast room table. The space is a long rectangle (12x23).
I think that cans are a good option for our kitchen because we have only 8' ceilings.
However, my husband doesn't like the idea of cans in the breakfast area, and I agree that a
hanging fixture helps to define the space somewhat. Plus, we do a lot of reading at the kitchen
table and the kids do their homework there.
Any ideas for us? FWIW, my decorator told us to avoid flourescent, and go with halogen for
"warmer" light. IMO, our undercab lights seem strangely yellow, perhaps in comparison to
everything else. And, of course, they heat up the cabinets.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Mary,
I'm wondering what type of halogen undercabinet lighting do you have? There could
be one or two reasons why they appear yellow. One is the white light from the
fluorescents interacting. The other which I have seen a few times is the color of the
cabinets and backslpash or counter. These can all affect how the light looks.
Recessed incandescents would probably blend in best with everything else. Of
course you could change the undercabinet lighting to fluorescent instead. These are
all a matter of cost. How much are you willing to spend to change it?
My first choice would be go with the recessed cans in the kitchen, leave the hanging
fixture over the table and then see how the undecabinets lights look at that point. I
can visualize it better if I know what the undercabinet lights are. Pucks? or strips or
individual fixtures?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt: To answer your questions... the potrack I have now is a 30x20 open rectangle; the
top edge is 18" from the 8.5 feet high ceiling, and that seems to be a good height over a
counter. But I will probably need a smaller one in the re-design, and am leaning towards an
oval or round one with a grid to hold lids. I wasn't thinking of illuminating the potrack; the
countertop below will be a fairly important work center, so I was wondering how to
illuminate that. I've been working on getting a design together online that I could post, but
don't have one yet (maybe in a few days...) Thanks again for your help!! This forum really is
amazing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt, thanks for the suggestion to use two sets of rope lighting. DH really wants to install
these above our cabinets. We have 9 foot ceilings and 42" upper cabinets so we have about
11 inches up there. I am unsure if I should put anything up there besides the lighting.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JudeNY,
I am not sure I follow you. Do you mean the lighting is above the upper cabinets. It
sounds like the center of the cans would be at 1 foot which would line up with the
edge of the uppers. Do you have a drawing I could see? If what I am imagining is
right you have to be very careful. If there is any crown moulding, you could end up
blocking almost all the light.
If the lights that are one foot off the wall on the 14' glass wall I would still be
concerned that your light is too close to the wall. With 10' ceilings the 6.5 feet apart
will work. Do you have more room before the skylight to pull the lights further from
the wall. I don't like to put the lights closer than 24" to a wall and more like 30" if I
can. Unless of course your wall washing, then it's a different story.
Let me know if I am seeing this right.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Dear ltngblt:
We have strips under the cabs with two tiny halogen bulbs, don't know the brand (something
we picked up at Costco for $15 ea). They look yellow to me regardless of other lights on in
the room.
We'll be replacing everything, and I just want to "get it right". Plus, as I approach my fifties,
the more light, the better!
Mary
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Mary, I'll step in, although I am not an expert like ltngbot :) We have cans in the kitchen area
with incandescent bulbs in them, an incandescent fixture on a dimmer over the dining table,
flourescent undercabs and halogen pendants over the island.
I think our lighting is quite adequate and the only thing I would have preferred is that the
pendants were incandescent, but they only came in halogen. They are just really bright, and
not on a dimmer.
The new flourescents available are really terrific - no flicker, no "blue" look, instant on, etc. I
got mine at Home Depot, they are made by GE.
Here is an old post I copied from someone:
----------
Fluorescent, IMO, delivers the higher quality of light, provided that you use the proper fixture
with the proper lamps.
Old style fluorescent lamps (bulbs) were T12 (1-1/2" dia.) used with magnetic ballasts. The
colors readily available were warm white and cool white, both of them were equally crappy.
The magnetic ballasts tend to hum and flicker, and were moderately energy efficient.
Today, T-12/magnetic fixtures should be avoided. undercounter fixtures are available with
electronic ballasts and T8 and T5 lamps. T5 can get a little pricey. The electronic ballasts do
not hum or flicker upon start-up. Make sure the fixture you choose has electronic ballasts.
Today's fluorescent is available in a wide variety of colors - rated in 'degrees
Kelvin'. 3000K is a warmer color, close to incandescent or halogen but a much
crisper light. Personally, I find this to be too warm. 3500K is considered neutral in
color, and it's well suited for residential applications. 4100K is a common lamp color,
I personally think these work well in modern design scheme that would call for
cooler colors. Higher Kelvin ratings produce a whiter, ranging towards blue, light,
often called a daylight color. True, these are closer in color to the morning sun, but I
don't feel they work well in most residential applications.
Yes, you can dim a fluorescent fixture, but it is expensive and requires costly ballast
and special dimmer switches. Consider instead using a two lamp profile and
switching each row of lamps seperately for dual level control.
Use lamps with a high color rendering. Big box guys won't always know what this
means, and I'm not sure that lamps with an 80+ CRI (color rendering index) are
available there. Check with a lighting distributer for a much better selection of
fluorescent lamps.
Osram-Sylvania and Philips make the best fluorescent lamps. GE is the third of the
big 3 lamp manufacturers. Personally, I wouldn't even consider any off-brands other
than these.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Dear ltngblt & everyone,
Do you think recessed fixtures are the best (and necessary) option for general/accent lighting?
I have a 120+ yr old Victorian farmhouse and I'm trying to give the kitchen as much of a
"been here since they built it" feel as possible. So I planned to use school house type
pendants for general lighting, and Xenon undercabinet lighting, and was hoping to avoid
recessed lights because I'm planning to install a pressed tin ceiling and really don't want it full
of swiss cheese holes. Right now, the plan calls for cabinets to the ceiling on at least 2 walls,
and our ceilings will be aproximately 9.5-10ft tall.
Looking at some of the plans on this thread, I suspect I may regret the no recessed fixtures
rule I had created, but I'm just afraid they'll look way too modern. At the same time, the
kitchen is on the north side of the house, gets limited sunlight (plus none obviously at night)
and I'm a light freak. One of my pet peeves about the current kitchen is that it's dim. I'd hate
myself if we finished this kitchen and had the same problem.
Always ;-)
Hunzi
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Hunzi: I've been exactly where you are. We went with four individually switched school house
lights in the kitchen and another in the connected scullery (a couple on dimmers); fluorescent
undercab lights, and sconces between the over-counter windows. Our kitchen gets little
natural light. The schoolhouse lights have tall brass poles that puts the lights down where there
are usuful -- probably about 8-8.5 feet instead of way up high around the tall ceiling.
We're delighted! Plenty of light, and we're old enough to need it. Plan your placement
carefully and I don't think you'll regret bypassing the new! new! new! looking recessed
lighting.
Good luck! Kate.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
I have a question about general lighting and ceiling fans. I would love to have a ceiling fan in
our kitchen. Do you think it would be best to get a ceiling fan with a light kit or a ceiling fan
with no light and a few recessed cans to use for general lighting? The area is 7 feet wide X 13
feet long. I am leaning towards no light on the fan and recessed cans on 2 separate switches.
Thoughts appreciated.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Kate,
Thanks so much! I was really beginning to worry that I'd be making a mistake.
The current kitchen is about 13x11 and has a 9ft ceiling. It only has a triple 60watt bulb
overhead fixture centered, plus a single 60watt fixture over the sink plus an undercabinet
florescent we put in over the main work space. I walk in and turn them all on, and feel it's too
dim but tolerable.
The new kitchen will be 22x13 (we're opening up the adjoining space) best described as a
very wide galley, double galley or an open U plan because we have 4 doors/3 pathways to
deal with (access to the outside, the office, and the basement & dining room). The ceiling will
go back to the original height less any space we need for a beam if we can't tuck it up in the
joists, so anywhere from 9.5ft to 10.5ft. We'll have cabinets on one of the short walls, you
enter from the dining room, and there's a counter parallel immediately on your right, sort of a
scullery/butler's wall with the dish storage, DW, sink then the corner to the wall opposite the
door with a 30in deep counter and the main work space possibly with no wall cabinets
because there's not room for many due to the window close to the corner and an AGA sitting
close to the end of the run. The wall beside the door will be pantry/storage with 2 Subzeros,
lots of pantry space and a 3ft sandwich station/counter landing zone between the fridge &
freezer. The last wall has no cabinets because there's a walkway zone there to the basement
and my office, although I'm strongly considering building a wall of cabinetry there and creating
a hall, because I really need storage space for coats, brooms etc, so I could turn the backside
into a long hall/mudzone which we're giving up to gain the extra room in the kitchen. I'm also
toying with putting in a long but narrow island, maybe 6 or 8 by 2, which would give me loads
more storage and a great workspace. I can't go wider because I'd run into problems with the
width of the passageways. If I do, I'll locate a run of pendants down the middle of it.
I love the idea that the school house lights bringing the light down closer to where it is needed.
I hadn't thought about that.
I haven't decided on any glass front cabinets yet, but if I do, I'll see if we can do the accent
lighting inside them. (Just not sure how well that works if you do not have glass shelves)
I'd kill for a design that allowed for a separate butler's pantry or a scullery. Best I'll be able to
do is move all the dish/linen storage closer to the dining room door.
Please share photos if you can! I'm still in the wish/plannng stages and every idea counts!
especially since it's much harder to find the old house lovers/renovators out there with ideas.
Always ;-)
Hunzi
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt, thanks very much. I was concerned about the 6.5' distance but really wanted those
big skylights. The cans are centered on the skylights (which are centered on the windows) in
one direction and can't go any closer to the skylights without appearing too close.
I'm sorry I'm not able to scan my drawings. I'll try to clarify. The walls where the lights are 1'
from the wall do not have cabinets on them. The 3 lights are centered on very tall windows
and french door and I meant for them to be ambient light and sort of a window wash. There
will be lace curtains on those windows which will have windowboxes and they open on to a
deck. I was hoping to throw light on the windowboxes without having the back of the house
lit like a movie set. From the 9' walls where the cabinets are the cans fall 18" from the edge of
the counters on the 9' walls. I intended for those to illuminate the interior of the cabinets and
have the undercounter lights for work light. The other 14' "wall" is mostly open to the dining
room and those 3 lights are 1' from the opening. The middle can on that wall is centered on
the countertop edge of the cooktop island which is centered on the opening into the dining
room - that island is partially pushed into the dining room. The pendant is centered on the
prep island which is centered on the middle window. Thanks very much for your help.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
oooh, Hunzi, an Aga should look great! What color? I'm sorry that I don't have any pictures;
it's a 15-year old remodel and the zillions of pictures that I DO have are all film and so full of
kids & cats & dogs & people that it's hard to see the kitchen . . . maybe I should take the
digital camera home from work & snap a few.
e-mail me if you want more details, though. I (modestly) consider it a major success!
Kate.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Kate,
The AGA will most likely be cream or black although I have a soft spot for the color red too.
Cream is the front runner, in a very classic creamy/pale yellow kitchen with soapstone
counters and either beadboard or subway tile backsplash. Antique Heart Pine on the floor.
The inspiration kitchen is the Crown-point kitchen I posted above. I'm nuts about that kitchen.
Always ;-)
Hunzi
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt, Thanks so much for posting here. I've found so many answers to questions I've had.
I will be having a 9 foot run of 12 inch deep by 120 inches tall cabinetry to to used as a
shallow pantry on one side of my kitchen. Top 30" will be obscure glass.
My question is, when putting recessed lighting in front of tall units do you measure the 30"
distance out from the wall or the face of the unit. The ceiling height in front of cabinets will be
12.5 to 13 feet. Recommendations? Thanks.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
There are certainly times when modern recessed lighting does not conform with the
decor. A victorian house with tin ceilings would surely qualify. Using pendants is a
good solution. If you need some type of guide us about 4-5 watts of light per square
foot for a kitchen. That would be keeping it on the well lit side. Any less than 3 watts
per square foot is to dim IMO for a kitchen. This is just a very basic guideline and
applies to incandescent lighting only.
LeeC,
I always like to go with no light kit on the ceiling fan unless it is going over a table.
Recessed lighting with a ceiling fan with no light will work. One note of caution. Try
to get a close to the ceiling type of fan, ceiling hugger, and be sure the lights are not
too close to the fan. If the fan is low or the lights are too close you end up with a very
annoying strobe light effect from the lights in the ceiling.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
lighting cabinet
wildchild,
I would have to see the rest of the layout to answer properly. Do you need to
illuminate the area how far in front of those cabinets. If not you could probably go
about 24" from the wall. At the risk of being long winded I never see things as cut
and dry so please forgive me. When I look at a situation to illuminate I see it as the
whole picture and want we want to achieve.
For instance in the case of these cabinets I would ask you a couple of things. Do you
want the light to show this piece off? Or do you want just good general lighting for
this area of the room? Is it more important that the outside be well lit or do you want
to be able to see into the cabinets well when you open the doors? All these factors
help determine the best way to light an object.
Hope I didn't complicate things. I just want you be happy when your done. Let me
know what you feel you want to accomplish with this light.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ltngbolt, Finished kitchen will be 14.5' by 28.5'. The far short wall faces East and will be an
eating area with windows and a back door space to be used for dogs' things.
This is the only exterior wall of the kitchen.
South facing long wall will be a 18' run of base and wall cabinets. The range, sink and
dishwasher are on this wall.
The short West wall will have a wall oven cab with a single oven and microwave above it.
Refrigerator is next with a doorway at right angle to the South wall leading to a hallway.
The North wall has a doorway (4' wide) to family room. The above mentioned wall of
cabinets run along here towards the East wall.
They are strictly for pantry food and seasonal/party storage. Composed of three 90" tall by
36" wide and 12" deep units topped by 30" tall obscure glass fonted units.
The ceiling height will start at 8' high on the South wall and be aproximately 13.5' at the North
wall.
A 30" by 46" skylight is planned with florescent tube lighting built into the well to satisfy our
"left coast" requirements.
There will be an island for (storage and baking only..no sink) beneath the skylite centered in
"working area" of kitchen. Island will measure 7.5-8' long by 3' wide give or take.
Oh yeah, the skylite faces South and will have a shade to be used when needed.
Hope this gives you the info you need. Thanks again.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips addendum
Whoops. I became so long-winded I forgot to answer the basic question about the use of the
lighting in front of these cabinets. I just want to see into them. Nothing to show off or
highlight. My kitchen is all about function for ME not form.
The thought originally arose when you mentioned to an above poster that you would like to
see the area in front of her fridge cabinet have a can. I was just wondering how far out.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
In our 12' by 16' kitchen we are using halogen line volt cans around the perimeter. From what
I have read here we have enough and have them spaced properly. We have no upper
cabinets but we do have two open shelves on either side of the stove. Under these will be
kichler xenon undercabinet lighting. Today I went searching for pendants to go over our 2' x7'
island. The ones I liked were incandescant and took a 60 watt maximum bulb. I planned on
getting two since the ceramic fixture was a bit bigger than your average halogen pendant. My
question is like Mary. Is it ok to mix these different types of lights? Would I have been better
off ordering incandescant recessed lighting? In general what do most people prefer? (we
haven't installed the lights yet so I guess we could exchange them) While I am still in the
decision making process, would I be better off getting halogen pendants in order to "match"
the light in the cans if I do end up keeping them?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Danimal, Thank you and I respect your opinion as well. Thats the wonderful
challenge of lighting and why I so emphasize that the homeowners needs are first
and foremost. My job in that comes in using my experience to help them achieve
that.
drae, I think either would be fine. I think the problem usually arises when you have a
central fluorescent and then start mixing in other types of light. BTW I like those
Kichler UC fixtures, good quality feel to them. Remember if you use a halogen
pendant, they are high glare and very hot, something to consider.
wildchild, Yes about 30" off the wallwould work well. From your description sounds
like some of your cabinets have 2 or 3 feet above them. Have you considered doing
any uplighting on top?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: drae
drae - halogen is a type of incandescent, but I won't split hairs. Any fixture you buy that will
take a line voltage halogen lamp, or a PAR lamp, will also take a line voltage incandescent
lamp. Now, the downlight that you bought was probably designed to work best with either a
PAR or an "R" or "BR" type of lamp, but any medium based lamp will fit. So you shouldn't
have to return the cans.
What most people like in terms of pendants these days tends to be low voltage halogen using
MR16 bulbs. It is also very popular to see "monorail" lighting in lieu of individual pendants
over islands and in other areas previously suited by multiple pendants. Take a look at
www.techlighting.com , they have some pretty neat stuff.
The answer to "can you mix different types of light" is yes, and in your case the kinds of light
are so similar that you shouldn't have any worries.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt - Hi! The working area of my kitchen is approx 13x15 and my electrician setup up
the cans in 2 L shapes. Each L run to be on its own switch/dimmer. Is this common or
completely wacky? I didn't give it much thought and I honestly don't know if/when I'd use
one L over the other and will probably just flick them all on at the same time (there's 10
cans). We no longer have that electrician for other reasons and my GC's guy has taken over.
But I was just curious if this is something you've seen before.
btw: I'm on LI too, in fact my father owned a Locksmith shop for 30+ years out here.
Perhaps your paths have crossed. Your name off your website was very familar.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ltngbolt,
I have sort of a similar situation as Hunzi, in that we want no cans. Although my ceilings are
only 8.5'. I don't have any pictures of the current state of our kitchen, but have a layout of
where the ceiling light boxes are, and a perspective drawing from the cabinet company that
built our cabinets. We were also thinking of schoolhouse style pendants, but not sure how it
would work. We have a light over our prep sink, two lights flanking the cooktop on the
island, and two lights shining into our glass front cabinets. Right now they are all plain
porcelain bases until we decide on style of lighting, and the light levels are ok. I can see
everything in the main sink, it just seems a little dim in the lower left corner, near the desk. We
will have undercounter lights under the two upper cabinets, and another one above the desk.
The current thinking on the lights is: flush mounts on the two lights in front of the upper
cabinets, school house pendants flanking the cooktop, and a simple pendant over the prep
sink. Does that sound like it might work out ok? Comments/concerns?
Thanks
Gina,
Hi neighbor :) Yes that is normal and I would encourage it. Myself I try not to have
more than 6 cans on one switch. I bet you'll find sometimes you will come into the
room and don't need all the lights. If possible I try to get a small section on a switch,
like 2 lights over an island for instance. Then when someone comes into the kitchen
for a midnight snack, they don't need sunglasses.
abm760,
I think with fixtures in the placement you have will work. I do have one concern, the
main sink. Both your lights are behind the user which can cause a shadow problem.
A small light over the sink on a switch nearby can alleviate that. It could be a
recessed can or a fixture to match the others.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LeeC,
I may be wrong, but I think what he meant by "retrofit fluorescent bulbs in the medium base
kits" is taking a normal light kit for a fan and instead of using incandescent bulbs, installing
compact fluorescents. Medium base BTW is your standard light bulb's base size.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ltngbolt, I was concerned about that too, once we had the ceiling done and going back
would be a pain. There is a bit of a shadow, but it hasn't been bad, with the simple fixtures I
have up now. The front of the sink is a little darker than the back, but not bad enough to go
through the hassle of putting holes in the ceiling to pull the wire. I could probably put it on the
same circuit with everything else without creating additional holes, though. All the boxes in
that ceiling are old work boxes on one kind or another, so I could pull one down, drill over
into the joist bay, and pull from the hole for the new light. That is, if I do add one in the future.
Thanks for the feedback.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt, thanks for all the time you are putting in to answer everyone's questions. Here are
mine.
I have a vaulted ceiling in my new kitchen. The electrician said there were 2 options for the
Halo cans - either to put in regular cans and then use an eyeball trim(expensive) to direct the
light straight down or to use specialized vaulted ceiling cans (the H47 series, I think) and use
normal(310) and cheaper trim. He said that the second option would be far more cost
effective and that's how we proceeded. But now that I'm looking around for trims, I find out
that the specialised cans need a special trim(478 series) and they cost about $25 each. The
electrician is still insisting that we can use the 310 trims that cost about $12 each. He said that
they would fit almost flush.
What do you think?
Second question - what is the difference between a wall wash trim and an eyeball trim? Can
one be used in the place of another?
Last one - Undercabinet fluorescents - can I use these for a desk area? ie will they provide
enough light to read by on a regular basis? Or should I go with halogens? Also, could you
recommend a good brand/model for the uc fluorescents(we've got to have them, CA code) at
a good price.
Thank you so much!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt - thank you for the reassurance! I appreciate it :)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Great discussion, everyone!
Any thoughts on pendants (or other fixtures) where, instead of low-voltage bi-pin halogens,
LV bi-pin Xenons are substituted (see below for bulb example). We tentatively have 5
pendants planned for a nearly 11 ft long 42" eating counter (18" wide under an 8' ceiling) and
are wondering whether the reduced lumen output will light the space adequately. Otherwise, it
seems attractive for the lower heat output.
Also, part of the discussion above got me rethinking all the cans we had planned for counter
illumination (we will have no upper cabinets), and that perhaps ceiling-mount fixtures (that
take advantage of the reflective properties of the ceiling) are worth considering. Any thoughts
on that?
Thanks!
- J.
Here is a link that might be useful: Bi-pin Xenon lamps
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
biti,
A wall washer is a trim kit that essentially directs the light out of a recessed can at an angle so
that it sheets a vertical surface with light. You can see a couple in this picture....
http://www.acuitybrandslighting.com/Library/Brands/LL/Downlighting/Commercial%20Optica
l%
An eyeball is designed to be used as an accent light, or to provide flexibility in directing spots
of light, and is not intended for the same use.
The halogens you mention would go great under a desk cabinet if you prefer your books to
be on fire as you read. :) Otherwise, this is a perfect application for fluorescent - make sure
you choose a quality fixture! Most folk with intense dislike of fluorescent lighting simply
haven't seen quality, and I'd hate for them to find another convert in you!
CA does require that the general source of lighting in a resi kitchen be a high efficacy source,
ie fluorescent. In Sacramento - and I like to think that this is partially due to many discussions
I've had with our plan check department - undercabinet alone is not sufficient. Hopefully, this
is an indication of things to come in the rest of the state, so check with your building
department to make sure that your lighting design will be up to code.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
led
JohnFH
Try something really different. Find a retrofit LED in an MR16 housing! I found one on sale at
ebay of all places - I assure you I am not trying to sell them.....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2794104595&category=2020
The light is good. They are typically found in an assortment of colors, and even made with a
chip that allows the bulb to constantly change to all colors of the rainbow. But, unless you are
throwing some very funky parties, you would probably want to stick with white, and the color
of the white LEDs can be very good, the quality of halogen light.
The energy usage is very good. about 2 watts? if memory serves. Even if you left them on all
of the time, the payback period would be relatively short, due also to outstanding lamp life
(100,000 hours).
I am planning on picking up a few for my home for a test drive. I will have to let everyone
know how they work out....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
biti2004,
Okay, I don't want to disagree with your electrician but the 310 trim is not a listed
trim by Halo for that can. That's not to say it won't work, just stating the facts. The
trims for the h47 sloped ceiling cans are a little pricey. You can use a normal 78
eyeball, but that would defeat the whole purpose of putting in the sloped ceiling cans
in the first place. The reason the 310 is not listed is it is made for a straight can so it
goes up the same distance all around inside. A trim designed for a sloped can is
made at an angle so that the light can de dispersed evenly leaving the fixture.
As for fluorescent UC lights and reading, I really have to say it is a matter of choice.
I would not advise halogens either in that case. If you like fluorescent light they
would be the most cost effective. If your looking for incandescent type light perhaps
a low voltage linear system would suit you better. But it will be more expensive.
Danimal answered the wall wash question so I won't repeat it. Hope this helps. If you
need to know what trims are listed for that can here they are:
498P or W
496P or W
417P or W
78 any finish
1417P or W
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
lighting
JohnFH,
Pertaining to the xenon compared to halogens, would need to know wattage volts of each to
compare. With 5 fixtures over that area sounds like you would be fine either way.
Concerning recessed cans, I have a different view than Danimal, which I am sure is already
evident. In cases where a certain look is to be achieved such as a very traditional setting like
we talked about earlier with tin ceilings Ceiling lights can be a great asset. That said, when
recessed cans fit the decor I think they are superior to anything else, giving you the best light
exactly where you need it. Using overhead lights in a kitchen will no doubt leave you making
shadows because at counters, sinks, cabinets and appliances you will be standing between
the light source and the subject.
Lighting is a subjective topic and we all have different ways of looking at things. Kitchens are
rooms that require the most thought when it comes to lighting. I will be the first to admit, when
it comes to kitchens I am not real strong about being energy efficient. I tend to strive for a
kitchen lighting plan that can accomodate the many different demands we put on it. Today we
use our kitchens not just to cook a meal. When we have a family and children we tend to live
in that room. Doing homework, paying bills, preparing meals, eating and entertaining.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Everyone mind humoring me in a little discussion of track lighting?
I'm building a 1-1/2 story, timberframe home. The living and dining areas will be open to the
roof peak with sheetrock between the beams. The kitchen (open to LR & DR) will have a
T&G pine ceiling at 8 ft, again with the beams exposed.
These beams are substantial so I'm assuming that light from cans or a ceiling mounted
flourescent fixture would be awfully broken up/shadowy because of them.
It seams that for areas in timberframe homes, track lighting is the obvious choice and the most
common. If that's the case, what do I need to know about different types of tracks and, in
particular, how does one use them in high ceiling areas so that they cast sufficient light without
shining in your eyes?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BernerFolk,
Track lighting in the situation you describe is common as you say. One factor about
track lighting is it is generally for directional and accent lighting and not necessarily
the best choice for general lighting. Of course in some cases, such as the one you
describe, high ceilings and timber beams, it may be the only viable solution. The
track system of tracks and heads is basically adjustable lampholders. There are a
multitude of different styles to choose from but the bulb is what you need to be
concerned with.
If the ceilings are very high you may want to think about par halogen bulbs. Low
voltage MR16 bulbs can give pretty intense light over distance if you need to have
concentrated light from a distance. To deal with the problem of glare in your eyes it's
all a matter of placement. One of the beautiful things about track lighting is you can
light an area from another area you can place the fixtures in such a way to avoid
looking right at them.
Of course there will always be a place in the room that you will be able to look into
the light, you can avoid the most common traffic paths from having that problem.
Lighting the left side of the room from the right side and the right from the left is an
example. If you gave me a drawing I could show you some examples of layout ideas.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltng -- Earlier in the thread you talked about incandescent bulbs throwing a yellowish light. I
have cans in my kitchen with butter-colored cabinets and sunny yellow walls. I was thinking
yesterday that it's a bit too yellow in there. So do you recommend switching out to halogen
bulbs in the cans to get a whiter light? Or could i do to the special white daylight "verilux" type
bulb? Do those work in the ceiling cans?
Also, must I use floodlight type bulbs in the cans or will regular bulbs do?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt:
RE. Xenon vs. halogen bi-pins, a typical bi-pin halogen (JC-20, 12v/20W) puts out 350
lumens, while a similar Xenon (BP-20-12V-CL) also 12v/20W, puts out 192 lumens. The
comparison between 12v/50W in halogen and Xenon is 950/750 lumens respectively.
- J.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt, I have this dream of being able to walk up to my island and turning on the
mini-pendants by touching a metal rail running under the perimeter of the counter. I'd love to
be able to turn the lights on and off from anywhere without having to walk around the island.
(I'm always scheming...) I also love the bright, dimmer, dimmest aspect of touch lights. Is this
a totally impractical idea??? (I just can't figure out why it would be...) Is there a way to do
this that would make it a good idea???
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
We now have fluorescent light in a dropped 7 foot ceiling over one half of the kitchen with
some canned lights for accent. I would like to remove the fluorescent and replace it with more
cans to update the look. My husband is afraid we will loose the ability to make the room
really bright whenever we need to. Opinion please. Should it stay or go?
Thank you very much for your help.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
JohnFH, Danimal, ltngbolt - OMG! Would those xenon bipins work in my tech lighting
pendants?!! I have the "meteor" pendants, and the dimmest bulb I could find that would fit
them is a JC Type Bi-Pin base: JC35/35 Watt. The 20 watt bi-pins have pins that are too
close together to fit in the lights. I would *love* to get 20W or even 15W.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
fatlester,
There are several different types of bulbs you can use to help that situation.
Halogen as you said, will give you a whiter light so that is one option. A good quality
fluorescent flood will also accomplish this as well. GE makes a series of bulbs called
Reveal. I honestly have not used them yet but I intend to try them. They are
supposed to give a full spectrum true color light. A good way to try a bulb and see
it's effect on the subject matter is to get one of those clip on lamp holders. I'm sure
you have seen them, they have a metal reflector cone with a switch on the socket, a
short cord and a clamp. They are very cheap. By placing a bulb you want to try in it
and shining it on the subject you can get a good idea of what to expect.
JohnFH, I would go with the xenon bulbs if it were me.
Samedis,
When you say fluorescents in a drop ceiling do you mean lay in fixtures or fixtures
above the ceiling with plexi sheets in place of tiles? How large an area is this and
how many fluorescents do you have now?
Claire,
Not a bad idea, I just don't know of anyone that makes a touch metal bar. On the
other hand the technology is out there for it and there may be a product that I am
just not aware of.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
bi-pins
Posted by: ltngbolt (My Page) on Sat, Mar 20, 04 at 10:52
weed30,
Sorry, I missed that one. Xenon bulb replacements are made for most of these bulbs.
You need to find out the base size. For instance G-4 is a size. Then you should be
able to find a bulb in a lesser wattage.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you. Somehow I think I remember G6. I will just take the current bulb to the lighting
store so they can match it up.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltgnbolt, Do you think there'd be a way to, uh, retrofit the available technology to make it
work? I always seem to have these ideas before the actual product is available!!! I need an
inventive mind to help me figure this out... Anyone?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltng-- a clarification as I'm confused: You're saying that I can use the Reveal florescent flood
lamps in regular ol ceiling cans that normally take incandescent floods? And use the same
dimming system? (decora with slow turnoff).
I do have a clip on reflector.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
fatlester,
Yes the reveal light bulbs are not fluorescent. They are specially made incandescent.
Like I said I don't know too much about them so you will have to do a little
homework. You can use compact fluorescent floods in your cans in place of the
incandescent bulbs and they do make dimmable ones but they are more expensive.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Here's a link to the info on the Reveal bulbs in case anyone else is interested. They
look like just what I need as a balance to all the buttery colors in my house and
especially in the kitchen. According to the website, the bulbs are made with a special
element that filters out the yellow. They are available at Target and K-Mart and
certainly worth a try!
Thanks for the lead, ltng -- very helpful. I'll let you know how they work.
Here is a link that might be useful: GE Reveal bulbs
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt: if you are still reading this thread I need some help. Our house was built in 1924 and
as I get older I am finding the lighting in most rooms is insufficient for me.
For example, in our bedroom we have one overhead light and two lamps on either side of the
bed. With all the lights on, I still find it dim in there. What are my options?? Ideally I would
like to add maybe recessed lights in each corner but not sure of the cost of all that. We have
a solidly built house with plaster everywhere. I don't like the looks of track lighting and
switching on 4 lamps every time I enter or exit the room seems too much work for me.
Our living room has no overheadlight, just two lamps and a fireplace. I need more light here.
We have very mature trees so our area is pretty shady and there is a screened porch off the
living room with two french doors leading to the screened porch, and one other window but
on a cloudy day it is dark in here in the daytime. Definitely dark at night. It definitely is cozy
and perfect for company but you could not do homework in this room.
These are two examples of the light situation in our home but overall it is underlit for me.
What do you recommend? Any wireless lighting options out there so I don't have to make a
bunch of holes in the plaster? Is there some new technology with lightbulbs that I could take
advantage of? My husband does not have this problem, just me, so he ia mainly unmotivated
to help out here.
Thank you for your advice.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
susanf242,
I understand your dilemma. Unfortunately plaster ceilings and walls can become a
real mess when trying to update the electric. If there is access above in the way of
an attic, it can be kept to a minimum. For somebody willing to take his time, and
providing the integrity of the plaster is good, you can do a recessed lighting job with
minimal damage.
As far as wireless the answer is no and yes. With some of the smart lighting systems
out today you can avoid running switch legs but you still need power at the fixtures.
The switches can be in the form of remotes.
To keep the damage to a minimum, center ceiling fixtures are one option. Another
option is wall sconces. By placing them strategically above receptacles to get a
power source you can use smart products to control them. Doing it this way it may be
possible to avoid damage altogether.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt:
I have a relatively simple question (I hope). Currently we have incandescent recessed can
lights in the ceiling. We are going to have all (opaque) glass cabinet uppers (Aviskt doors
from Ikea) and we are removing the soffits so they will be the taller doors. We are thinking of
using GE Premium florescent under cab lighting, but don't know what to use for the inside
cabinet lighting. I understand the light will very likely not reach the bottom shelf of the
cabinets. I'm a little wary of halogens since they seem to get so hot -
Oh I almost forgot, we are going to have a 2' x 4' flared skylight in the center (recessed cans
will go around the skylight). I've attached a copy of our plan -
Anyway, what's the best light to use in cabinets? And will it look strange to have the
combination of incandescent, florescent and whatever we end up with inside the cabinets?
TIA you are really wonderful!
as well.
As an electrical contractor and being in the construction field for over 25 years there
are some consistent mistakes I see made in new homes and renovations. Maybe
some of this can be helpful.
A house or any particular room can be carefully planned, well thought out and
perfectly executed but without the proper lighting it never really comes to life. A
perfect example is a tile back splash in a kitchen. Without some nice under cabinet
lighting to show it off it never really reaches it's potential as an eye opener.
As you plan each room there are three basic forms of lighting. General Lighting -
which light you need in a room to function. A means to safely navigate the room in
the dark of night. Accent Lighting - light that highlights a particular item or items of
importance to you or the room design. Task lighting - light that serves a function
related to a particular task or area where work is performed.
A kitchen benefits most from all three forms of lighting in most cases. Recessed
lighting combined with a pendant or two and possibly a ceiling fan can provide the
general lighting. Under cabinet lighting serves two functions. It acts as Task lighting
for working on the countertop as well as Accent lighting to highlight that beautiful
countertop and back splash. Additional accent lighting can be added in glass
cabinets, which really brings them to life. In some cases where crown molding is
installed and there is space above some cove lighting can create a wonderful effect
and ambience to a room.
In a living room a couple of well placed wall washers can turn an fireplace wall that
seemed ordinary into a piece of art. Perhaps you are planning on a wall to display
photos or a collection of art posters. Wouldn't it be nice to light that independently
and show it off? Along with the lighting, the way in which they are switched is almost
as important. A room with 9 recessed lights that all come on at once lacks
forethought.
In any room by breaking the lights that are switched into sections or patterns and
through the use of dimmers, a room can take on many personalities and moods.
When considering switches it is also important to consider traffic flow through the
house. There is nothing worse than a setup where you have to go back and turn a
light off only to proceed in the dark. With the proper planning and use of 3 way and 4
way switches the house can be so much more user friendly.
If you find this info useful let me know and I can keep going.............and going..........and
going lol
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
This is just the thread I was hoping to find! *smile* We are preparing to embark on a full
kitchen re-do. I can hardly wait to rid the ceiling of that "lovely" fluorescent box! The question
is, what to replace it with? Our kitchen is a small galley, 11 1/2 x 8 1/2. It is open on both
ends, (the kids love to run circles through it), and there is a 33"sq window at one end. Next
to the window is part of the slider door, so we do get some natural light, although none of it is
direct because there is a covered patio directly outside. We have been looking at those "new"
bendable track lights, but we are concerned that the five halogen bulbs wouldn't give off
enough light at night. (Any thoughts?) Recessed lights are another option. The kitchen ceiling
is directly below a large attic, so it is easily accessible. (We've installed can lights before
elsewhere.) Do you think recessed lights are a better solution than the bendable track light? If
so, how many cans would you recommend for a space that size? The "general lighting" is
giving us the hardest time. As much as we dislike the fluorescent box, it is what we're used to.
I sure appreciate any help you are able to give! Thanks so much!
Stacie
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
I'm also having trouble with our general lighting plan. How do you determine the
number/placement of recessed lights? And what features should you look for in these lights?
I'm going to have an L-shaped kitchen with island and was thinking of pendant lights over the
island and table, plus under-cabinet lights, in addition to the recessed lights.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tipsLaura, I'm having the same kind of kitchen lighting but am
confused about the undercabinet kind. Do you know what you are getting?
Keep going ltngbolt! I wish our electrician was as helpful as you are. Thanks!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Meggswife I drew a quick layout for a galley kitchen from your explanation, not sure
if it's right. As for the lighting in a kitchen I prefer recessed cans. One main reason
is you can place the lights close enough to the counters that you won't get shadows.
About 24" off the wall which puts the center of the light even with the outside edge
of the countertop. Of course ceiling joists can alter the layout. As for the size of the
cans, in a smaller room you may want to go with a smaller can like a halo H-5 which
is a 5" can or you can go to something in the 4" range but then you may need 8
lights as opposed to 6. If the room looks like I drew a ceiling fan in the center could
make a nice addition as well, but no light kit on it just a clean close to the ceiling fan.
Laura, Pendants over the island is a great look and works fine as a look with
recessed lighting in the room. Placement of the recessed lights depends on the size
of the can. For standard 6" cans in a kitchen setting with 8 foot ceilings, I don't like
to go more than 4-5 feet between fixtures. I will try to elaborate more later, need to
get off to a job right now.
Here is a link that might be useful: Galley Kitchen
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Keep going ltngbolt! What do I do for light in the 1/2 of my kitchen that has exposed, hand
hewn beams? The "working half of the kitchen" (the two sides are divided by a peninsula with
recessed cans over the stove) has a regular plaster ceiling. It will have an island that I plan to
put a pendant over. But what do I do about lighting in the non-working half? I have a
fireplace there, a couch and my kitchen table - pushed up against the peninsula. Right now we
just use lamps but it always seems dark. - Crey
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt:
Please give your opinion re: mixing different types of light in the kitchen.
I currently have halogen undercabinet lighting, flourescent general lighting and an incandescent
chandelier over the breakfast room table. To me, the lights all have different colors and it
gives a strange effect. What do you recommend for a new kitchen lighting plan?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
thanks ltngbolt! Would you please also comment on the "swiss cheese" look? I have seen so
many kitchen designs where there are way too many cans in the ceiling. Unneeded and looks
terrible.
I have only 5 cans in my ceiling, along the L of the counter, then 3 mini pendants over the
island. There are 4 more cans elsewhere in the main area - 2 over a couch and 2 over a
display cabinet. Then a fixture over the table. The original designer put 12 cans *just in the
kitchen area*! WITH PENDANTS!
Finally, I do have a burning need: My display cabinet needs lighting inside. Because of the
way the doors open I need lights that are less than 1" front to back. I also don't want anything
very bright, just a nice soft glow. These would be linked together or not, but ultimately would
be plugged in to the wall, no room for any more switches. Any suggestions? Thanks!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt,
Thanks so much for your informative comments. We're building a custom house. Do you
recommend getting a lighting designer or should a good electrician be able to advise properly?
Thanks.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt, How's it feel to be so...popular?!!! We've missed you and you didn't even know
you were missing!
Here's my dilemma: I think I'm covered for most of the lighting, and everything's on dimmers
with 3-ways in the appropriate place. We've got rope lighting 7 feet high, recessed task
lighting (halogen), and mini pendants over the island with two ceiling fans in the walkway
(incandescent). There are no upper cabinets and I'd love my low (around 6.5 inches)
backsplash to show up and glitter. Will the halogen task lighting be sufficient? (My other
concern is the halogen lights are too warm although they'll be 10 feet high...)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt,
As you can see, your post hit a nerve. The basic information you provided in the first note
was wonderful, yet many of us are still not clear on how much light. Like weed30, I am wary
of the "swiss cheese effect" (well-put, weed!) I have a bungalow that only had one ceiling light
in each room, and am trying to find a way to do the lighting that is efficient and effective, yet
still respectful of the home's style. I went from being adamant about no recessed lighting to
being open to it, but it seems the advice from electricians I am getting is more, more, more.
So my question is, with a modest size kitchen (12 x 15) that will have a ceiling fixture (general
light) over the table in the center, halogen lights within the range hood for task lighting there,
and a pendant light over the sink for that task lighting, how how much more lighting is really
necessary?
Do you follow some general guidelines when setting how much recessed lighting to put in?
How far from the counter edge do you recommend placement to avoid casting shadows
while working at the counter?
Thanks for your comments.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt,
Thank you so much for your helpful response, (and helpful sketch)! After seeing your
drawing, I agree that recessed lights will work/look best. You are a "light-saver"! Have a
great day!
Stacie
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Wow I am overwhelmed with the response. I promise I will answer all these
questions. I work on this mostly in the evening since I am busy during the day
physically doing the same. Tonight I will get to these.
One thing I could use help with is weed30, how did you get that link right in the text
of your message? It would certainly let me answer easier if I could do that. As for
that cabinet Satco makes a nice product but it is not on their website. It comes in 10,
20 and 30" lengths and is basically a 3 sided metal frame with one open side that the
light eminates from. The light is mild and not bright and perfect for that application.
It comes in black metal which suits wood well.
More to come
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Crey, the situation of 1/2 the room with exposed beams you can use a low voltage
track light. Something along the lines of a juno track if the beams are not really
large. The reason is with a low voltage track and heads the whole setup is small and
can easily be hidden and not so obtrusive as big bulky track heads. I am not a big
fan of track lights but there are times it is perfect for an application. They use
halogen lights and can give good lighting that can be directed where you want it.
spacific, I can tell you my preference but with my customers I first get a feel for how
much light they feel comfortable with. For me I want a room to be capable of
different moods and functions. Take a bedroom for instance. Most times when in use
you don't need much light since your sleeping or involved in other low light activities.
But there are times such as cleaning, changing sheets, making beds and getting
dressed that you may want to have good light to see what you are doing. In most
rooms in the 12 x 12 or 14 x 14 size by placing 4 recessed lights about 30" of each
corner symetrically on a dimmer, you can have excellent general lighting or romantic
lighting for those other times.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt: To have a clickable link, you just find the web address of the photo you want to
show. Then you insert it in between some simple HTML commands. ie:
<a href=http://www.greatlighting.com>Great Lighting</a>
Note that the "a href" has a space, but that is the only space in there. You can name the link
whatever you want, I used Great Lighting in the example. Make sure you don't forget to
"close" the link command by using the
</a>
command.
If you need more help, just email me and I can create the syntax for you. Click on my name
for the email link.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Thanks weed30, I will try and use it here. One of the best undercabinet lighting
systems I have used is Task Lighting It is a low voltage linear system. It is a little
more money than some others but quality wise I think it's the best.
As for the swiss cheese effect I suppose I would have to see a picture of a job that
you felt looked that way. I think if the lights are properly placed and layed out
symetrically the lights look like they should be there.
Different types of lighting can have a very noticeable effect on the color you see.
Incandescents cast a yellow tint and on some kitchen cabinets it can be an adverse
look. Halogen and most newer fluorescents can give a true color rendering to the
cabinet finish.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt, thank you for the tip on the Satco lights. I sent them an email describing what I want.
You may end up being sorry you posted your offer to help here...lighting is really a hot topic
and confusing to most!
We all hope you stick around though!!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Thanks for your comments ltngbolt.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt~ Thank you!
I am in the middle of a kitchen addition, and I've made most of the lighting decisions-
recessed cans, alabaster chandelier over table, pendant over sink.
I am still confused about under cabinet lights to light up my counter work space. Do you
recommend xenon, halogen, or fluorescent? Any particular brand? What about spacing?
Should they be installed at the front edge of the upper cabinet or the back edge touching the
wall?
Thanks for all your help!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ArtTeacher,
The actual type of light is really a matter of choice. The most economical and trouble
free are thinline fluorescents. You can purchase UC fluorescents from your local
electrical supply (my first choice) or a large home store. These we always mount
against the backsplash wall, hard wired. They provide ample light and the bulbs last
a couple of years.
If you want to go a little higher in price my favorite light is xenon and the company
Task Lighting makes a few different types. If you are doing a nice tile backsplash
you want to show off, these mounted near the front of the cabinet will really do the
job. The kitchen in the first group of photos in thisPhoto Gallery was done with Task
Lighting.
As far as spacing if you use fluorescents you want to go as large as you can under
each cabinet. With the low voltage linear lighting like Task, you want to try and have
it go from end to end on every cabinet row, of course remaining within any light rail
being installed.
Do you have any glass cabinets? If so don't overlook the potential to light them from
inside as well.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
We are building a new house and visited the lighting center our builder uses this week. We
were set to use xenon lighting under the cabinets. The designer recommended flourescent for
under the counter. They had two kitchens with xenon lighting on display. They both had
strong hot spot reflections in the counter from the bulbs. She said flourescent gives much
more even lighting. Not what I expected. Anyone experience bulb reflection with xenon
lighting?
Bob
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Bob,
What type of reflection were you seeing? Was it a granite countertop? What kind of
fixtures, was it a mini track or a strip, pucks or individual fixtures?
Remember, and this is the case with any lighting on a granite gloss counter, in any
dark solid colors especially. They act like a mirror and you will see the underside of
the cabinet as well as the lighting when you are standing in fron of the counter.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
I went to the library last night and one of the books (which was 6-7 years old) recommended
against recessed can lighting because it can be quite hot if you're standing under it. Is this
true? Most of you seem to be getting those can lights -- can you give me some advice on
what size to get and where to place them?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
If your cans are halogen, yes, this could be possible. I have incandescent cans, and they are
terrific.
I have halogen pendants over the island, and the lights get HOT!! They only have 35w bulbs.
They are also incredibly bright - they hurt my eyes if I'm sitting at the island and glance up at
them. Wish they made 20w bi-pins in the size I need.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
The only time heat from fixtures is really a concern, providing of course
manufacturers recommendation for bulb wattage size is followed, is if the ceiling is
unusally low. In a normal setting, recessed cans should not make a real noticeable
difference in room temperature. That said, I have seen cases where there are so
many lights that it actually does add heat to a room.
Another factor is bulb wattage. Going back a few years it was not uncommon to put
150 watt floods in recessed cans. Now in that case, yes you could feel the heat. This
could account for what you read in the book. Today no one I know in this business
uses 150watt floods anymore.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Thanks for setting my mind at ease about the recessed cans. How many do you think I need?
My L-shaped kitchen (with island) and eating area will be 13' x 22' (the L itself is about
13'x14'). Do you scatter them all over the area or just near the countertops in the kitchen?
Oh and I was thinking of getting a solar tube too, maybe about 5' from the corner walls. We
have a window but it faces north. This lighting business sure is confusing, but I'd like to plan it
properly.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Laura, I have an L shaped kitchen that is 10' x 12' and I only have 5 cans along the counters.
The electrician wanted to put one out in front of the fridge/pantry but it would not have lined
up with the other cans, and besides there is a light in the fridge ;)
They are more evenly spaced than they look in the pic below - the angle I shot from was
funny.
Here is a link that might be useful: cans
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
weed30, the kitchen came out beautiful. I to would have suggested another recessed can
over the fridge. I will give you my reasoning but I don't discount your line of thinking. There is
no right and wrong in any of this, we all have different tastes. The reason is although the fridge
does have a light, the cabinets don't. In order to see well in those cabinets you would need
your pendants on. The other reason is with the recessed cans on the whole run of cabinets is
not uniformly lit. It seems that the light would be out of line but if it is placed the same distance
from the top of cabinet it looks okay.
If you have area opposite the L-shape kitchen that you need to light as well you can line some
of theses cans up with those to have a symmetrical pattern. Think about your switching
options as well.
Laura P,
A layout similar to the one in weed's picture, is a good one. Keeping the lights about
4 feet apart with an 8 foot ceiling and lining them up so the center of each is lined up
with the countertop edge gives you nice uniform light over the counters.
One other very important point. I know you mentioned a solar tube, which is great,
but always remember when designing a lighting plan you don't want to take daylight
into account. Believe it or not I have seen people design a room and later realize
that it actually gets dark at night and that big window is useless.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt: Any rule of thumb to tell if one's lighting plans are sufficient? My state (Calif) requires
fluorescent for general kitchen lighting. I plan to use use two clouds in my tiny galley (9'
measured to end wall cabs that reach ceiling). The 16" diam. version model uses two 13W;
the 20" diam. one uses four 13W. My older eyes need more & more light, but I'm wondering
if the 20" is overkill. Or can one just reduce the # of bulbs one uses in the fluorescent fixture?
Thx for your insights.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
I didn't realize that was the case in California, very interesting. Talk about the
governement controlling every aspect of your life. Okay off the politics.
A 13 watt fluorescent puts out about 800 lumens, a measure of light. In a setting like
a kitchen, where you want to have good working light you would want about 15
lumens per square foot. Using this formula, if your room is about 10ft x 10ft you
would need two 13 watt bulbs. If you need higher than average light levels due to age
or other factors you may want to consider the 4 bulb fixture.
If I were to make a suggestion it would be to go with a 4 foot cloud fluorescent that
takes either 2 or 4 40 watt tubes. One 40 watt fluorescent tube emits about 2400
lumens. Because you mentioned a galley kitchen a longer light would give you better
overall spread.
On the topic of fluorescent light here is a bit of information. Fluorescent bulbs are
rated with long life hours, in the 15,000 hour range. But I recommend to people all
the time to change the bulbs once a year for standard bulbs and once every two
years for compacts. The reason is the gas in fluorescents diminishes with time and
the lumen output after one year can be as much as 30%. Unlike an incandescent
bulb which just plain goes out, fluorescent bulbs get dimmer with time so you
gradually get used to it and may not even realize your living with less light. That is
until you put those new bulbs in!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Okay...my turn now. I just had my first walk-thru to consider lighting. I think I can handle the
rest of the house, but I have questions about my kitchen.
Background: The kitchen is 20' x 32,' including the eating area. The built-in hutch (on right
looking at picture) will be lighted. There will be lighting that comes in the hood (4 halogens).
Inside the alcove, I had planned a "can" over each base cabinet flanking the range (there are
no upper cabs here). These would be outside the hood, but inside the alcove and not much
use to the rest of the kitchen. I had also planned 2 cans inside the valance over the sink area.
I had planned one large chandelier (or two smaller ones) over the kitchen table (this area
would be at the "bottom" of the picture, way opposite the range wall, but it is not shown).
The island closest to the range wall is the prep island. The other island is for
homework/entertaining.
Questions: I need to figure out how to light the islands and the perimeter of the kitchen. I had
thought I would put 3 cans along the sink wall (in addition to the two behind the valance) to
hit 50/50 on the counter edge. I thought I'd put two at the built-in hutch, each one closer to
where a side of the hutch meets a fridge (the hutch is between two refrigerator/freezers), to hit
50/50 on the counter edge.
I thought I'd put 2 over the prep island (6' x 4'), across the width. The second island is
trickier. Seating is only on the far end (toward the bottom of the page). I don't want to cast
shadows over the kids' shoulders while they are working.
I will have undercabinet lighting at the sink cabs and in the Baking Center (in the left
"alcove"). But it doesn't seem like I'll have enough light in the Baking Center. Should I just
stick another can in the area? I know exactly what Weed means about the Swiss cheese
effect!
I plan to have several different lighting zones. Also, I saw some really cute pendant lights that
I thought would look great, as a series of 3, over my prep island...but I don't want to clutter
up the ceiling, nor do I want to detract from the range wall, which is the whole reason for
building the new house. (Okay, just kidding, we were going to build anyway!)
Thank you for your advice! Where should I send my payment for consulting services??!! Deb
Here is a link that might be useful: Overhead View of Kitchen
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Okay I took your drawing and drew in the lights the way I understood them from
your description. I did add one light in the area to the right of the stove area because
it will be a dark area otherwise. As far as the rest, a layout like this should work
well. The light to the right of the sink area should help light up your baking center as
well if it is placed near enough to the end. It may create a bit of a shadow when your
standing there but if you add another one there it may look awkward. Is there any
type of UC lighting in that area?
As far as over the work area island at the bottom of the drawing, I think pendants
are a good idea. Two is what I would go with to try to keep that focal point(stove
area) fairly unobstructed. As far as those pendants I would look for two features.
One would be fixtures that could take up to 100 watt bulbs each if incandescent and
something that has a frosted glass so you get light projecting outward as well as
down. The reasoning is with this size kitchen, which looks like it will be beautiful
BTW, you could use the extra light unless you want to go with more recessed lights.
As for payment, lol since you asked, tell everybody you can about my shopping
website. You'd have to email me though because it wouldn't be right if I listed it here.
Here is a link that might be useful: Your Kitchen with Lights Added
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt...you got it! Yay! One vote for the pendants. No one I've talked with likes the idea.
Oh yes, I forgot about the light in front of the pantry. Good catch. I'll also email you. Thank
you again!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Glad to be of service :)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Thank you ltngbolt! You have very helpful and kind to give us all of this advice - Crey
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Yes, thank you. I can see that the architect put the lights in the wrong places big time in our
kitchen. But at least the mistakes are on paper and I could change them with the electrician.
At a window/sink or window with major prep area, where would you put the recessed can?
Still at the counter edge? Thanks again for all the advice.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
IMO, the cans should always be on the counter edge. If they are out further, they will be
behind you and you will cast a shadow on whatever you are doing at the counter. Too close
in and they lose their "cone" - diminishing the amount of light you have in the kitchen.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Yes, you have really struck a nerve here. Thank you so much for your illuminating :) advice!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
This is an extremely helpful thread! I have wired for undercabinet lighting but I am still very
undecided about whether or not I will install it. You see, I don't want them to be visible, but I
also do NOT want molding to hide them. We are going for a very sleek, retro-modern look,
Premier Bristol thermafoil cabs with a light green laminate countertop (Wilson Art Green
Glace). Molding just won't do. So I have basically been looking for the *skinniest* thing I
can find.
I've been looking at Xenon lights because they are cooler than halogen and we dislike the
coldness of flourescent lights. One solution that caught my eye was Pegasus Associates'
Xenon Low-Voltage Light Strip. Any experience with these? Does Task Lighting have an
equivalent or something else that will fit the bill? The button lights look promising, especially if
we recess them into the bottoms of the cabinets. BUT this doesn't seem to be the most
space-effective solution, obviously -- I can just imagine bumping the lamps every time I
unload the dishwasher.
Many thanks!
Here is a link that might be useful: Pegasus Xenon Light Strip
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Here is our lighting plan (you may have to scroll down on the link to see the schematic for
everything). Most of this is in place now, and we really love it. I think our GC thought we
were crazy, because it's a LOT of light (more than swiss cheese)! We were brightness happy.
Partly because it's a north room, and because we were doing deep, rich stained cherry, and
we wanted to be sure we could illuminate enough. Well, we can, but again, we're very
pleased with the results. We did these over 4 circuits, so we can control how much we want,
and dimmers are going in as well for additional control. I wanted to be able to create lots of
"moods" with the lighting, from bright for cooking to very soft for entertaining. And I wanted
the lights to show off the styling of the cabinets.
One thing we found was that lighting help was difficult to find. I think if I could have found a
lighting planner or expert, we would have, but we didn't quite know where to turn, so we did
it ourselves, with the help of a couple of books.
I'm really glad to see someone on-line who has knowledge and can give suggestions and
advice! This is a great thread, and should get bumped from time to time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt - so kind of you to offer this advice. What would be your thoughts on lighting around
a pot rack? My design calls for an L-shaped section of counter: 5 feet along the wall with a 2'
long (36" wide) peninsula extending out into the room, with a hanging potrack above. (On the
opposite/overhang side, the peninsula will provide a total of 4' of sitting space.) There will be
wall cabinets along the entire 5 feet of wall. Thanks for any help!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
benanas,
As far as the light in the sink area. I usually recommend that can be placed closer to
the wall in the case where a window is present and there is no wall cabinet.
Sometimes a smaller can and on a seperate switch near the sink. So mant customers
tell me they love having that seperate switch, so I would say it was a success.
aehughes,
Do the cabinets have any kind of reveal? About the tightest thing you can install is a
rope light which doesn't throw a great deal of light but is effective for ambience. The
other thing is Task Lighting (See the link below) Makes some very low profile
lighting, and it is bright. One fixture they have is 7/8".
femmelady,
I think you did a great job. In my eyes you can't have too much light in the kitchen.
There is no other room where lighting is more important. With the switches and
dimmers you get full control and have as much light as you need.
maggie_MI,
I need to ask a couple of questions on this one. Is the pot rack design a rectangle
with an open middle, an open grid or some other design? How far from the ceiling is
the rack. Are you looking for how to light around the rack for your counters, or did
you want to see how you can light the rack?
I have in the past used recessed cans over a pot rack, but there was some additional
ceiling height so it gave a nice effect. Let me know what you have and if by chance
you have a kitchen floorplan you can email it if you like.
Here is a link that might be useful: Task Lighting Fixtures
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
One aspect I find is often overlooked for it's lighting potential. This doesn't work in
all kitchens, but with ones that have a nice flow of upper cabinets and crown molding
with some space above, accent lighting above the cabinets is a show stopper. This
can be accomplished with several different products. Fluorescents, although not my
first choice, is one form of light. It does have a rather unique look but I prefer those
for tray ceilings with coves, that is an awesome look. Incandescent lighting is
another method with hollywood strips. My concern with those is the heat. I always
worry someone will put items that may be flammable above the cabinets for display,
like dried flowers.
The best solution I have found is rope lighting. It is economical both in cost and
useage. It doesn't generate dangerous heat levels. If purchased in an electrical
supply it can be made to size so you get complete coverage. There is one drawback
and that is you need 2 lines of it to get a nice effect. If you use 2 lines you just have
to leave a small space between them, which is not a problem since it's above the
cabinets and you can't see it anyway. It can also be dimmed. If you have seen some
of the kitchen pictures I posted here these were the type of over the cabinet light we
used.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
I noticed a question that comes up often is how to layout recessed cans or high hats.
In a kitchen setting, where good illumination is particularly important. the layout is
more critical than in say the living room. In order to create a layout that works well it
is important to understand the way the actual light eminates from the bulb. In the
case of a normal flood in a 6" recessed can, there is a 60 deg. beam of light.
This means in a room with 8 foot ceilings the circular pattern on the floor is about 9
feet in diameter. This however is not the whole picture. The most intense portion of
this light is in a circle of only 5 feet or so. The remainder is a diminishing amount of
light down to 0 at the edge. In a room requiring just general lighting placing the cans
5 to 6 feet apart will accomplish that, but in a kitchen there is another factor.
In a kitchen we are usually trying to illuminate the counters. The countertops are a
little over 3 feet off the ground. This reduces the beams width meaning 5 to 6 feet
will leave shadows or dark spots. By bringing the light in to a 4 foot spacing
eliminates this problem. See the diagrams to visualize this.
Here is a link that might be useful: Diagrams for Laying out Recessed Lighting
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt, thanks for all this great info; lighting baffles me but I can feel when it's right and
wrong. How do 10' ceilings affect the recessed can layout ?
In my 9x14 kitchen I specified 3 cans, 4' apart on each 14' length, 1' away from one 14' wall,
18" away from the other. That puts them 6.5' apart in the 9' direction - skylights take up the
space between them. One of the 14' walls is all window/glass door and the other has a 9 high
x 11 wide opening to the dining room. One of the cans is centered on a 5' wide cooktop
island at the edge of the counter. There will be a pendant over the 6' prep island, 4' away
from the window wall and uc florescent along the 9' wall. I like the look of lights above the
top cabinets (no soffits) but I won't be able to get up there to change them. Do I have enough
light ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt:
I posted earlier about the "funny" feel I get in my kitchen that has three different types of
lights: halogen undercab, flourescent bubble over island, and incandescent chandelier over
breakfast room table. The space is a long rectangle (12x23).
I think that cans are a good option for our kitchen because we have only 8' ceilings.
However, my husband doesn't like the idea of cans in the breakfast area, and I agree that a
hanging fixture helps to define the space somewhat. Plus, we do a lot of reading at the kitchen
table and the kids do their homework there.
Any ideas for us? FWIW, my decorator told us to avoid flourescent, and go with halogen for
"warmer" light. IMO, our undercab lights seem strangely yellow, perhaps in comparison to
everything else. And, of course, they heat up the cabinets.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Mary,
I'm wondering what type of halogen undercabinet lighting do you have? There could
be one or two reasons why they appear yellow. One is the white light from the
fluorescents interacting. The other which I have seen a few times is the color of the
cabinets and backslpash or counter. These can all affect how the light looks.
Recessed incandescents would probably blend in best with everything else. Of
course you could change the undercabinet lighting to fluorescent instead. These are
all a matter of cost. How much are you willing to spend to change it?
My first choice would be go with the recessed cans in the kitchen, leave the hanging
fixture over the table and then see how the undecabinets lights look at that point. I
can visualize it better if I know what the undercabinet lights are. Pucks? or strips or
individual fixtures?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt: To answer your questions... the potrack I have now is a 30x20 open rectangle; the
top edge is 18" from the 8.5 feet high ceiling, and that seems to be a good height over a
counter. But I will probably need a smaller one in the re-design, and am leaning towards an
oval or round one with a grid to hold lids. I wasn't thinking of illuminating the potrack; the
countertop below will be a fairly important work center, so I was wondering how to
illuminate that. I've been working on getting a design together online that I could post, but
don't have one yet (maybe in a few days...) Thanks again for your help!! This forum really is
amazing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt, thanks for the suggestion to use two sets of rope lighting. DH really wants to install
these above our cabinets. We have 9 foot ceilings and 42" upper cabinets so we have about
11 inches up there. I am unsure if I should put anything up there besides the lighting.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JudeNY,
I am not sure I follow you. Do you mean the lighting is above the upper cabinets. It
sounds like the center of the cans would be at 1 foot which would line up with the
edge of the uppers. Do you have a drawing I could see? If what I am imagining is
right you have to be very careful. If there is any crown moulding, you could end up
blocking almost all the light.
If the lights that are one foot off the wall on the 14' glass wall I would still be
concerned that your light is too close to the wall. With 10' ceilings the 6.5 feet apart
will work. Do you have more room before the skylight to pull the lights further from
the wall. I don't like to put the lights closer than 24" to a wall and more like 30" if I
can. Unless of course your wall washing, then it's a different story.
Let me know if I am seeing this right.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Dear ltngblt:
We have strips under the cabs with two tiny halogen bulbs, don't know the brand (something
we picked up at Costco for $15 ea). They look yellow to me regardless of other lights on in
the room.
We'll be replacing everything, and I just want to "get it right". Plus, as I approach my fifties,
the more light, the better!
Mary
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Mary, I'll step in, although I am not an expert like ltngbot :) We have cans in the kitchen area
with incandescent bulbs in them, an incandescent fixture on a dimmer over the dining table,
flourescent undercabs and halogen pendants over the island.
I think our lighting is quite adequate and the only thing I would have preferred is that the
pendants were incandescent, but they only came in halogen. They are just really bright, and
not on a dimmer.
The new flourescents available are really terrific - no flicker, no "blue" look, instant on, etc. I
got mine at Home Depot, they are made by GE.
Here is an old post I copied from someone:
----------
Fluorescent, IMO, delivers the higher quality of light, provided that you use the proper fixture
with the proper lamps.
Old style fluorescent lamps (bulbs) were T12 (1-1/2" dia.) used with magnetic ballasts. The
colors readily available were warm white and cool white, both of them were equally crappy.
The magnetic ballasts tend to hum and flicker, and were moderately energy efficient.
Today, T-12/magnetic fixtures should be avoided. undercounter fixtures are available with
electronic ballasts and T8 and T5 lamps. T5 can get a little pricey. The electronic ballasts do
not hum or flicker upon start-up. Make sure the fixture you choose has electronic ballasts.
Today's fluorescent is available in a wide variety of colors - rated in 'degrees
Kelvin'. 3000K is a warmer color, close to incandescent or halogen but a much
crisper light. Personally, I find this to be too warm. 3500K is considered neutral in
color, and it's well suited for residential applications. 4100K is a common lamp color,
I personally think these work well in modern design scheme that would call for
cooler colors. Higher Kelvin ratings produce a whiter, ranging towards blue, light,
often called a daylight color. True, these are closer in color to the morning sun, but I
don't feel they work well in most residential applications.
Yes, you can dim a fluorescent fixture, but it is expensive and requires costly ballast
and special dimmer switches. Consider instead using a two lamp profile and
switching each row of lamps seperately for dual level control.
Use lamps with a high color rendering. Big box guys won't always know what this
means, and I'm not sure that lamps with an 80+ CRI (color rendering index) are
available there. Check with a lighting distributer for a much better selection of
fluorescent lamps.
Osram-Sylvania and Philips make the best fluorescent lamps. GE is the third of the
big 3 lamp manufacturers. Personally, I wouldn't even consider any off-brands other
than these.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Dear ltngblt & everyone,
Do you think recessed fixtures are the best (and necessary) option for general/accent lighting?
I have a 120+ yr old Victorian farmhouse and I'm trying to give the kitchen as much of a
"been here since they built it" feel as possible. So I planned to use school house type
pendants for general lighting, and Xenon undercabinet lighting, and was hoping to avoid
recessed lights because I'm planning to install a pressed tin ceiling and really don't want it full
of swiss cheese holes. Right now, the plan calls for cabinets to the ceiling on at least 2 walls,
and our ceilings will be aproximately 9.5-10ft tall.
Looking at some of the plans on this thread, I suspect I may regret the no recessed fixtures
rule I had created, but I'm just afraid they'll look way too modern. At the same time, the
kitchen is on the north side of the house, gets limited sunlight (plus none obviously at night)
and I'm a light freak. One of my pet peeves about the current kitchen is that it's dim. I'd hate
myself if we finished this kitchen and had the same problem.
Always ;-)
Hunzi
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Hunzi: I've been exactly where you are. We went with four individually switched school house
lights in the kitchen and another in the connected scullery (a couple on dimmers); fluorescent
undercab lights, and sconces between the over-counter windows. Our kitchen gets little
natural light. The schoolhouse lights have tall brass poles that puts the lights down where there
are usuful -- probably about 8-8.5 feet instead of way up high around the tall ceiling.
We're delighted! Plenty of light, and we're old enough to need it. Plan your placement
carefully and I don't think you'll regret bypassing the new! new! new! looking recessed
lighting.
Good luck! Kate.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
I have a question about general lighting and ceiling fans. I would love to have a ceiling fan in
our kitchen. Do you think it would be best to get a ceiling fan with a light kit or a ceiling fan
with no light and a few recessed cans to use for general lighting? The area is 7 feet wide X 13
feet long. I am leaning towards no light on the fan and recessed cans on 2 separate switches.
Thoughts appreciated.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Kate,
Thanks so much! I was really beginning to worry that I'd be making a mistake.
The current kitchen is about 13x11 and has a 9ft ceiling. It only has a triple 60watt bulb
overhead fixture centered, plus a single 60watt fixture over the sink plus an undercabinet
florescent we put in over the main work space. I walk in and turn them all on, and feel it's too
dim but tolerable.
The new kitchen will be 22x13 (we're opening up the adjoining space) best described as a
very wide galley, double galley or an open U plan because we have 4 doors/3 pathways to
deal with (access to the outside, the office, and the basement & dining room). The ceiling will
go back to the original height less any space we need for a beam if we can't tuck it up in the
joists, so anywhere from 9.5ft to 10.5ft. We'll have cabinets on one of the short walls, you
enter from the dining room, and there's a counter parallel immediately on your right, sort of a
scullery/butler's wall with the dish storage, DW, sink then the corner to the wall opposite the
door with a 30in deep counter and the main work space possibly with no wall cabinets
because there's not room for many due to the window close to the corner and an AGA sitting
close to the end of the run. The wall beside the door will be pantry/storage with 2 Subzeros,
lots of pantry space and a 3ft sandwich station/counter landing zone between the fridge &
freezer. The last wall has no cabinets because there's a walkway zone there to the basement
and my office, although I'm strongly considering building a wall of cabinetry there and creating
a hall, because I really need storage space for coats, brooms etc, so I could turn the backside
into a long hall/mudzone which we're giving up to gain the extra room in the kitchen. I'm also
toying with putting in a long but narrow island, maybe 6 or 8 by 2, which would give me loads
more storage and a great workspace. I can't go wider because I'd run into problems with the
width of the passageways. If I do, I'll locate a run of pendants down the middle of it.
I love the idea that the school house lights bringing the light down closer to where it is needed.
I hadn't thought about that.
I haven't decided on any glass front cabinets yet, but if I do, I'll see if we can do the accent
lighting inside them. (Just not sure how well that works if you do not have glass shelves)
I'd kill for a design that allowed for a separate butler's pantry or a scullery. Best I'll be able to
do is move all the dish/linen storage closer to the dining room door.
Please share photos if you can! I'm still in the wish/plannng stages and every idea counts!
especially since it's much harder to find the old house lovers/renovators out there with ideas.
Always ;-)
Hunzi
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt, thanks very much. I was concerned about the 6.5' distance but really wanted those
big skylights. The cans are centered on the skylights (which are centered on the windows) in
one direction and can't go any closer to the skylights without appearing too close.
I'm sorry I'm not able to scan my drawings. I'll try to clarify. The walls where the lights are 1'
from the wall do not have cabinets on them. The 3 lights are centered on very tall windows
and french door and I meant for them to be ambient light and sort of a window wash. There
will be lace curtains on those windows which will have windowboxes and they open on to a
deck. I was hoping to throw light on the windowboxes without having the back of the house
lit like a movie set. From the 9' walls where the cabinets are the cans fall 18" from the edge of
the counters on the 9' walls. I intended for those to illuminate the interior of the cabinets and
have the undercounter lights for work light. The other 14' "wall" is mostly open to the dining
room and those 3 lights are 1' from the opening. The middle can on that wall is centered on
the countertop edge of the cooktop island which is centered on the opening into the dining
room - that island is partially pushed into the dining room. The pendant is centered on the
prep island which is centered on the middle window. Thanks very much for your help.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
oooh, Hunzi, an Aga should look great! What color? I'm sorry that I don't have any pictures;
it's a 15-year old remodel and the zillions of pictures that I DO have are all film and so full of
kids & cats & dogs & people that it's hard to see the kitchen . . . maybe I should take the
digital camera home from work & snap a few.
e-mail me if you want more details, though. I (modestly) consider it a major success!
Kate.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Kate,
The AGA will most likely be cream or black although I have a soft spot for the color red too.
Cream is the front runner, in a very classic creamy/pale yellow kitchen with soapstone
counters and either beadboard or subway tile backsplash. Antique Heart Pine on the floor.
The inspiration kitchen is the Crown-point kitchen I posted above. I'm nuts about that kitchen.
Always ;-)
Hunzi
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt, Thanks so much for posting here. I've found so many answers to questions I've had.
I will be having a 9 foot run of 12 inch deep by 120 inches tall cabinetry to to used as a
shallow pantry on one side of my kitchen. Top 30" will be obscure glass.
My question is, when putting recessed lighting in front of tall units do you measure the 30"
distance out from the wall or the face of the unit. The ceiling height in front of cabinets will be
12.5 to 13 feet. Recommendations? Thanks.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
There are certainly times when modern recessed lighting does not conform with the
decor. A victorian house with tin ceilings would surely qualify. Using pendants is a
good solution. If you need some type of guide us about 4-5 watts of light per square
foot for a kitchen. That would be keeping it on the well lit side. Any less than 3 watts
per square foot is to dim IMO for a kitchen. This is just a very basic guideline and
applies to incandescent lighting only.
LeeC,
I always like to go with no light kit on the ceiling fan unless it is going over a table.
Recessed lighting with a ceiling fan with no light will work. One note of caution. Try
to get a close to the ceiling type of fan, ceiling hugger, and be sure the lights are not
too close to the fan. If the fan is low or the lights are too close you end up with a very
annoying strobe light effect from the lights in the ceiling.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
lighting cabinet
wildchild,
I would have to see the rest of the layout to answer properly. Do you need to
illuminate the area how far in front of those cabinets. If not you could probably go
about 24" from the wall. At the risk of being long winded I never see things as cut
and dry so please forgive me. When I look at a situation to illuminate I see it as the
whole picture and want we want to achieve.
For instance in the case of these cabinets I would ask you a couple of things. Do you
want the light to show this piece off? Or do you want just good general lighting for
this area of the room? Is it more important that the outside be well lit or do you want
to be able to see into the cabinets well when you open the doors? All these factors
help determine the best way to light an object.
Hope I didn't complicate things. I just want you be happy when your done. Let me
know what you feel you want to accomplish with this light.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ltngbolt, Finished kitchen will be 14.5' by 28.5'. The far short wall faces East and will be an
eating area with windows and a back door space to be used for dogs' things.
This is the only exterior wall of the kitchen.
South facing long wall will be a 18' run of base and wall cabinets. The range, sink and
dishwasher are on this wall.
The short West wall will have a wall oven cab with a single oven and microwave above it.
Refrigerator is next with a doorway at right angle to the South wall leading to a hallway.
The North wall has a doorway (4' wide) to family room. The above mentioned wall of
cabinets run along here towards the East wall.
They are strictly for pantry food and seasonal/party storage. Composed of three 90" tall by
36" wide and 12" deep units topped by 30" tall obscure glass fonted units.
The ceiling height will start at 8' high on the South wall and be aproximately 13.5' at the North
wall.
A 30" by 46" skylight is planned with florescent tube lighting built into the well to satisfy our
"left coast" requirements.
There will be an island for (storage and baking only..no sink) beneath the skylite centered in
"working area" of kitchen. Island will measure 7.5-8' long by 3' wide give or take.
Oh yeah, the skylite faces South and will have a shade to be used when needed.
Hope this gives you the info you need. Thanks again.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips addendum
Whoops. I became so long-winded I forgot to answer the basic question about the use of the
lighting in front of these cabinets. I just want to see into them. Nothing to show off or
highlight. My kitchen is all about function for ME not form.
The thought originally arose when you mentioned to an above poster that you would like to
see the area in front of her fridge cabinet have a can. I was just wondering how far out.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
In our 12' by 16' kitchen we are using halogen line volt cans around the perimeter. From what
I have read here we have enough and have them spaced properly. We have no upper
cabinets but we do have two open shelves on either side of the stove. Under these will be
kichler xenon undercabinet lighting. Today I went searching for pendants to go over our 2' x7'
island. The ones I liked were incandescant and took a 60 watt maximum bulb. I planned on
getting two since the ceramic fixture was a bit bigger than your average halogen pendant. My
question is like Mary. Is it ok to mix these different types of lights? Would I have been better
off ordering incandescant recessed lighting? In general what do most people prefer? (we
haven't installed the lights yet so I guess we could exchange them) While I am still in the
decision making process, would I be better off getting halogen pendants in order to "match"
the light in the cans if I do end up keeping them?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Danimal, Thank you and I respect your opinion as well. Thats the wonderful
challenge of lighting and why I so emphasize that the homeowners needs are first
and foremost. My job in that comes in using my experience to help them achieve
that.
drae, I think either would be fine. I think the problem usually arises when you have a
central fluorescent and then start mixing in other types of light. BTW I like those
Kichler UC fixtures, good quality feel to them. Remember if you use a halogen
pendant, they are high glare and very hot, something to consider.
wildchild, Yes about 30" off the wallwould work well. From your description sounds
like some of your cabinets have 2 or 3 feet above them. Have you considered doing
any uplighting on top?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: drae
drae - halogen is a type of incandescent, but I won't split hairs. Any fixture you buy that will
take a line voltage halogen lamp, or a PAR lamp, will also take a line voltage incandescent
lamp. Now, the downlight that you bought was probably designed to work best with either a
PAR or an "R" or "BR" type of lamp, but any medium based lamp will fit. So you shouldn't
have to return the cans.
What most people like in terms of pendants these days tends to be low voltage halogen using
MR16 bulbs. It is also very popular to see "monorail" lighting in lieu of individual pendants
over islands and in other areas previously suited by multiple pendants. Take a look at
www.techlighting.com , they have some pretty neat stuff.
The answer to "can you mix different types of light" is yes, and in your case the kinds of light
are so similar that you shouldn't have any worries.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt - Hi! The working area of my kitchen is approx 13x15 and my electrician setup up
the cans in 2 L shapes. Each L run to be on its own switch/dimmer. Is this common or
completely wacky? I didn't give it much thought and I honestly don't know if/when I'd use
one L over the other and will probably just flick them all on at the same time (there's 10
cans). We no longer have that electrician for other reasons and my GC's guy has taken over.
But I was just curious if this is something you've seen before.
btw: I'm on LI too, in fact my father owned a Locksmith shop for 30+ years out here.
Perhaps your paths have crossed. Your name off your website was very familar.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ltngbolt,
I have sort of a similar situation as Hunzi, in that we want no cans. Although my ceilings are
only 8.5'. I don't have any pictures of the current state of our kitchen, but have a layout of
where the ceiling light boxes are, and a perspective drawing from the cabinet company that
built our cabinets. We were also thinking of schoolhouse style pendants, but not sure how it
would work. We have a light over our prep sink, two lights flanking the cooktop on the
island, and two lights shining into our glass front cabinets. Right now they are all plain
porcelain bases until we decide on style of lighting, and the light levels are ok. I can see
everything in the main sink, it just seems a little dim in the lower left corner, near the desk. We
will have undercounter lights under the two upper cabinets, and another one above the desk.
The current thinking on the lights is: flush mounts on the two lights in front of the upper
cabinets, school house pendants flanking the cooktop, and a simple pendant over the prep
sink. Does that sound like it might work out ok? Comments/concerns?
Thanks
Gina,
Hi neighbor :) Yes that is normal and I would encourage it. Myself I try not to have
more than 6 cans on one switch. I bet you'll find sometimes you will come into the
room and don't need all the lights. If possible I try to get a small section on a switch,
like 2 lights over an island for instance. Then when someone comes into the kitchen
for a midnight snack, they don't need sunglasses.
abm760,
I think with fixtures in the placement you have will work. I do have one concern, the
main sink. Both your lights are behind the user which can cause a shadow problem.
A small light over the sink on a switch nearby can alleviate that. It could be a
recessed can or a fixture to match the others.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LeeC,
I may be wrong, but I think what he meant by "retrofit fluorescent bulbs in the medium base
kits" is taking a normal light kit for a fan and instead of using incandescent bulbs, installing
compact fluorescents. Medium base BTW is your standard light bulb's base size.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ltngbolt, I was concerned about that too, once we had the ceiling done and going back
would be a pain. There is a bit of a shadow, but it hasn't been bad, with the simple fixtures I
have up now. The front of the sink is a little darker than the back, but not bad enough to go
through the hassle of putting holes in the ceiling to pull the wire. I could probably put it on the
same circuit with everything else without creating additional holes, though. All the boxes in
that ceiling are old work boxes on one kind or another, so I could pull one down, drill over
into the joist bay, and pull from the hole for the new light. That is, if I do add one in the future.
Thanks for the feedback.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt, thanks for all the time you are putting in to answer everyone's questions. Here are
mine.
I have a vaulted ceiling in my new kitchen. The electrician said there were 2 options for the
Halo cans - either to put in regular cans and then use an eyeball trim(expensive) to direct the
light straight down or to use specialized vaulted ceiling cans (the H47 series, I think) and use
normal(310) and cheaper trim. He said that the second option would be far more cost
effective and that's how we proceeded. But now that I'm looking around for trims, I find out
that the specialised cans need a special trim(478 series) and they cost about $25 each. The
electrician is still insisting that we can use the 310 trims that cost about $12 each. He said that
they would fit almost flush.
What do you think?
Second question - what is the difference between a wall wash trim and an eyeball trim? Can
one be used in the place of another?
Last one - Undercabinet fluorescents - can I use these for a desk area? ie will they provide
enough light to read by on a regular basis? Or should I go with halogens? Also, could you
recommend a good brand/model for the uc fluorescents(we've got to have them, CA code) at
a good price.
Thank you so much!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt - thank you for the reassurance! I appreciate it :)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Great discussion, everyone!
Any thoughts on pendants (or other fixtures) where, instead of low-voltage bi-pin halogens,
LV bi-pin Xenons are substituted (see below for bulb example). We tentatively have 5
pendants planned for a nearly 11 ft long 42" eating counter (18" wide under an 8' ceiling) and
are wondering whether the reduced lumen output will light the space adequately. Otherwise, it
seems attractive for the lower heat output.
Also, part of the discussion above got me rethinking all the cans we had planned for counter
illumination (we will have no upper cabinets), and that perhaps ceiling-mount fixtures (that
take advantage of the reflective properties of the ceiling) are worth considering. Any thoughts
on that?
Thanks!
- J.
Here is a link that might be useful: Bi-pin Xenon lamps
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
biti,
A wall washer is a trim kit that essentially directs the light out of a recessed can at an angle so
that it sheets a vertical surface with light. You can see a couple in this picture....
http://www.acuitybrandslighting.com/Library/Brands/LL/Downlighting/Commercial%20Optica
l%
An eyeball is designed to be used as an accent light, or to provide flexibility in directing spots
of light, and is not intended for the same use.
The halogens you mention would go great under a desk cabinet if you prefer your books to
be on fire as you read. :) Otherwise, this is a perfect application for fluorescent - make sure
you choose a quality fixture! Most folk with intense dislike of fluorescent lighting simply
haven't seen quality, and I'd hate for them to find another convert in you!
CA does require that the general source of lighting in a resi kitchen be a high efficacy source,
ie fluorescent. In Sacramento - and I like to think that this is partially due to many discussions
I've had with our plan check department - undercabinet alone is not sufficient. Hopefully, this
is an indication of things to come in the rest of the state, so check with your building
department to make sure that your lighting design will be up to code.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
led
JohnFH
Try something really different. Find a retrofit LED in an MR16 housing! I found one on sale at
ebay of all places - I assure you I am not trying to sell them.....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2794104595&category=2020
The light is good. They are typically found in an assortment of colors, and even made with a
chip that allows the bulb to constantly change to all colors of the rainbow. But, unless you are
throwing some very funky parties, you would probably want to stick with white, and the color
of the white LEDs can be very good, the quality of halogen light.
The energy usage is very good. about 2 watts? if memory serves. Even if you left them on all
of the time, the payback period would be relatively short, due also to outstanding lamp life
(100,000 hours).
I am planning on picking up a few for my home for a test drive. I will have to let everyone
know how they work out....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
biti2004,
Okay, I don't want to disagree with your electrician but the 310 trim is not a listed
trim by Halo for that can. That's not to say it won't work, just stating the facts. The
trims for the h47 sloped ceiling cans are a little pricey. You can use a normal 78
eyeball, but that would defeat the whole purpose of putting in the sloped ceiling cans
in the first place. The reason the 310 is not listed is it is made for a straight can so it
goes up the same distance all around inside. A trim designed for a sloped can is
made at an angle so that the light can de dispersed evenly leaving the fixture.
As for fluorescent UC lights and reading, I really have to say it is a matter of choice.
I would not advise halogens either in that case. If you like fluorescent light they
would be the most cost effective. If your looking for incandescent type light perhaps
a low voltage linear system would suit you better. But it will be more expensive.
Danimal answered the wall wash question so I won't repeat it. Hope this helps. If you
need to know what trims are listed for that can here they are:
498P or W
496P or W
417P or W
78 any finish
1417P or W
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
lighting
JohnFH,
Pertaining to the xenon compared to halogens, would need to know wattage volts of each to
compare. With 5 fixtures over that area sounds like you would be fine either way.
Concerning recessed cans, I have a different view than Danimal, which I am sure is already
evident. In cases where a certain look is to be achieved such as a very traditional setting like
we talked about earlier with tin ceilings Ceiling lights can be a great asset. That said, when
recessed cans fit the decor I think they are superior to anything else, giving you the best light
exactly where you need it. Using overhead lights in a kitchen will no doubt leave you making
shadows because at counters, sinks, cabinets and appliances you will be standing between
the light source and the subject.
Lighting is a subjective topic and we all have different ways of looking at things. Kitchens are
rooms that require the most thought when it comes to lighting. I will be the first to admit, when
it comes to kitchens I am not real strong about being energy efficient. I tend to strive for a
kitchen lighting plan that can accomodate the many different demands we put on it. Today we
use our kitchens not just to cook a meal. When we have a family and children we tend to live
in that room. Doing homework, paying bills, preparing meals, eating and entertaining.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Everyone mind humoring me in a little discussion of track lighting?
I'm building a 1-1/2 story, timberframe home. The living and dining areas will be open to the
roof peak with sheetrock between the beams. The kitchen (open to LR & DR) will have a
T&G pine ceiling at 8 ft, again with the beams exposed.
These beams are substantial so I'm assuming that light from cans or a ceiling mounted
flourescent fixture would be awfully broken up/shadowy because of them.
It seams that for areas in timberframe homes, track lighting is the obvious choice and the most
common. If that's the case, what do I need to know about different types of tracks and, in
particular, how does one use them in high ceiling areas so that they cast sufficient light without
shining in your eyes?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BernerFolk,
Track lighting in the situation you describe is common as you say. One factor about
track lighting is it is generally for directional and accent lighting and not necessarily
the best choice for general lighting. Of course in some cases, such as the one you
describe, high ceilings and timber beams, it may be the only viable solution. The
track system of tracks and heads is basically adjustable lampholders. There are a
multitude of different styles to choose from but the bulb is what you need to be
concerned with.
If the ceilings are very high you may want to think about par halogen bulbs. Low
voltage MR16 bulbs can give pretty intense light over distance if you need to have
concentrated light from a distance. To deal with the problem of glare in your eyes it's
all a matter of placement. One of the beautiful things about track lighting is you can
light an area from another area you can place the fixtures in such a way to avoid
looking right at them.
Of course there will always be a place in the room that you will be able to look into
the light, you can avoid the most common traffic paths from having that problem.
Lighting the left side of the room from the right side and the right from the left is an
example. If you gave me a drawing I could show you some examples of layout ideas.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltng -- Earlier in the thread you talked about incandescent bulbs throwing a yellowish light. I
have cans in my kitchen with butter-colored cabinets and sunny yellow walls. I was thinking
yesterday that it's a bit too yellow in there. So do you recommend switching out to halogen
bulbs in the cans to get a whiter light? Or could i do to the special white daylight "verilux" type
bulb? Do those work in the ceiling cans?
Also, must I use floodlight type bulbs in the cans or will regular bulbs do?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt:
RE. Xenon vs. halogen bi-pins, a typical bi-pin halogen (JC-20, 12v/20W) puts out 350
lumens, while a similar Xenon (BP-20-12V-CL) also 12v/20W, puts out 192 lumens. The
comparison between 12v/50W in halogen and Xenon is 950/750 lumens respectively.
- J.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltngbolt, I have this dream of being able to walk up to my island and turning on the
mini-pendants by touching a metal rail running under the perimeter of the counter. I'd love to
be able to turn the lights on and off from anywhere without having to walk around the island.
(I'm always scheming...) I also love the bright, dimmer, dimmest aspect of touch lights. Is this
a totally impractical idea??? (I just can't figure out why it would be...) Is there a way to do
this that would make it a good idea???
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
We now have fluorescent light in a dropped 7 foot ceiling over one half of the kitchen with
some canned lights for accent. I would like to remove the fluorescent and replace it with more
cans to update the look. My husband is afraid we will loose the ability to make the room
really bright whenever we need to. Opinion please. Should it stay or go?
Thank you very much for your help.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
JohnFH, Danimal, ltngbolt - OMG! Would those xenon bipins work in my tech lighting
pendants?!! I have the "meteor" pendants, and the dimmest bulb I could find that would fit
them is a JC Type Bi-Pin base: JC35/35 Watt. The 20 watt bi-pins have pins that are too
close together to fit in the lights. I would *love* to get 20W or even 15W.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
fatlester,
There are several different types of bulbs you can use to help that situation.
Halogen as you said, will give you a whiter light so that is one option. A good quality
fluorescent flood will also accomplish this as well. GE makes a series of bulbs called
Reveal. I honestly have not used them yet but I intend to try them. They are
supposed to give a full spectrum true color light. A good way to try a bulb and see
it's effect on the subject matter is to get one of those clip on lamp holders. I'm sure
you have seen them, they have a metal reflector cone with a switch on the socket, a
short cord and a clamp. They are very cheap. By placing a bulb you want to try in it
and shining it on the subject you can get a good idea of what to expect.
JohnFH, I would go with the xenon bulbs if it were me.
Samedis,
When you say fluorescents in a drop ceiling do you mean lay in fixtures or fixtures
above the ceiling with plexi sheets in place of tiles? How large an area is this and
how many fluorescents do you have now?
Claire,
Not a bad idea, I just don't know of anyone that makes a touch metal bar. On the
other hand the technology is out there for it and there may be a product that I am
just not aware of.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
bi-pins
Posted by: ltngbolt (My Page) on Sat, Mar 20, 04 at 10:52
weed30,
Sorry, I missed that one. Xenon bulb replacements are made for most of these bulbs.
You need to find out the base size. For instance G-4 is a size. Then you should be
able to find a bulb in a lesser wattage.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you. Somehow I think I remember G6. I will just take the current bulb to the lighting
store so they can match it up.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Ltgnbolt, Do you think there'd be a way to, uh, retrofit the available technology to make it
work? I always seem to have these ideas before the actual product is available!!! I need an
inventive mind to help me figure this out... Anyone?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltng-- a clarification as I'm confused: You're saying that I can use the Reveal florescent flood
lamps in regular ol ceiling cans that normally take incandescent floods? And use the same
dimming system? (decora with slow turnoff).
I do have a clip on reflector.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
fatlester,
Yes the reveal light bulbs are not fluorescent. They are specially made incandescent.
Like I said I don't know too much about them so you will have to do a little
homework. You can use compact fluorescent floods in your cans in place of the
incandescent bulbs and they do make dimmable ones but they are more expensive.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
Here's a link to the info on the Reveal bulbs in case anyone else is interested. They
look like just what I need as a balance to all the buttery colors in my house and
especially in the kitchen. According to the website, the bulbs are made with a special
element that filters out the yellow. They are available at Target and K-Mart and
certainly worth a try!
Thanks for the lead, ltng -- very helpful. I'll let you know how they work.
Here is a link that might be useful: GE Reveal bulbs
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt: if you are still reading this thread I need some help. Our house was built in 1924 and
as I get older I am finding the lighting in most rooms is insufficient for me.
For example, in our bedroom we have one overhead light and two lamps on either side of the
bed. With all the lights on, I still find it dim in there. What are my options?? Ideally I would
like to add maybe recessed lights in each corner but not sure of the cost of all that. We have
a solidly built house with plaster everywhere. I don't like the looks of track lighting and
switching on 4 lamps every time I enter or exit the room seems too much work for me.
Our living room has no overheadlight, just two lamps and a fireplace. I need more light here.
We have very mature trees so our area is pretty shady and there is a screened porch off the
living room with two french doors leading to the screened porch, and one other window but
on a cloudy day it is dark in here in the daytime. Definitely dark at night. It definitely is cozy
and perfect for company but you could not do homework in this room.
These are two examples of the light situation in our home but overall it is underlit for me.
What do you recommend? Any wireless lighting options out there so I don't have to make a
bunch of holes in the plaster? Is there some new technology with lightbulbs that I could take
advantage of? My husband does not have this problem, just me, so he ia mainly unmotivated
to help out here.
Thank you for your advice.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
susanf242,
I understand your dilemma. Unfortunately plaster ceilings and walls can become a
real mess when trying to update the electric. If there is access above in the way of
an attic, it can be kept to a minimum. For somebody willing to take his time, and
providing the integrity of the plaster is good, you can do a recessed lighting job with
minimal damage.
As far as wireless the answer is no and yes. With some of the smart lighting systems
out today you can avoid running switch legs but you still need power at the fixtures.
The switches can be in the form of remotes.
To keep the damage to a minimum, center ceiling fixtures are one option. Another
option is wall sconces. By placing them strategically above receptacles to get a
power source you can use smart products to control them. Doing it this way it may be
possible to avoid damage altogether.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Light up Your Life: Some tips
ltngbolt:
I have a relatively simple question (I hope). Currently we have incandescent recessed can
lights in the ceiling. We are going to have all (opaque) glass cabinet uppers (Aviskt doors
from Ikea) and we are removing the soffits so they will be the taller doors. We are thinking of
using GE Premium florescent under cab lighting, but don't know what to use for the inside
cabinet lighting. I understand the light will very likely not reach the bottom shelf of the
cabinets. I'm a little wary of halogens since they seem to get so hot -
Oh I almost forgot, we are going to have a 2' x 4' flared skylight in the center (recessed cans
will go around the skylight). I've attached a copy of our plan -
Anyway, what's the best light to use in cabinets? And will it look strange to have the
combination of incandescent, florescent and whatever we end up with inside the cabinets?
TIA you are really wonderful!
